Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Unregistered, Jun 20, 2009.
Read it here
Can anyone confirm the authenticity? Any eyewitness accounts?
one thing you have to take into account about the west part. US is the least appropriate country to intervene. if anything the united nations should help the people in there. and i am pretty sure obama has something planned if stuff goes really wrong.
Fox News USA Reports 30-40 dead to 200 hurt.
still working on rummer of arrest. still making statments so must not be true.
obama should say more. We the people stand for you.
Obama doesn't need to say more, the last time the United States interfered in Iranian politics, we messed up big time. Also, if Obama says anything, it'll hurt the protests as the present regime will immediately (and has already) accuse the US for starting the protests.
Western intervention won't help revolution
For a start, even if the governments and armies of the west were friends of freedom - which they are not (otherwise, why don't they liberate Zimbabwe? why do they ally themselves with Saudi Arabia - the list is endless) - even if they were, how could a military strike help people in Tehran now?
The force for freedom must come from within: a general strike, defense militias, councils of action, and so one. On the outside, solidarity is vital - demonstrations, blockading Iranian property - but also telling our own governments to stay out.
As for Israel, they would love to 'take out' the Iranian regime, or at least it's military facilities. But purely in the interests of their own state. And don't think they'd do it cleanly. Look at the carnage the IDF wrought in Gaza. Keep the murdering Israeli forces out of Iran!
What I've read from a reliable Iranian twitter is that there are no confirmed tanks, and it's misinformation designed to prevent people from assembling wherever the tanks supposedly are.
Not to mention the fact that the US has been trying to get into talks with Iran for quite some time now and speaking out directly agains the Iranian government would really hurt that.
Talks between US & Iranian leaders hold nothing for us
Who cares if talks between the US administration and the Iranian dictatorship go ahead or not. They's do nothing to help the people of Iran.
Take China. When they were seen as an enemy of the US, the regime was criticized. Now the two are intricately interdependent economically, democracy in China doesn't matter to US leaders.
I think this statement, by Iranians in HOPI (Hands Off the People of Iran ~ Hands Off The People Of Iran ) has the right approach:
Hands Off The People Of Iran fights against the threat of any imperialist intervention, war or sanctions against Iran. It looks to build active, practical solidarity with grass-roots radical secular forces in Iran, the militant womens, workers and students movements. We want regime change, both in Iran and in the imperialist countries. But we know that change must come from below - from the struggles of the working class and social movements - if it is to lead to genuine liberation.
Our campaign demands:
No to imperialist war! For the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of US/UK troops from Iraq and all the Gulf region!
No to any imperialist intervention. The immediate and unconditional end to sanctions on Iran.
No to the theocratic regime!
Opposition to Israeli expansionism and aggression!
Support to all working class and progressive struggles in Iran against poverty and repression!
Support for socialism, democracy and workers' control in Iran!
For a nuclear-free Middle East as a step towards a nuclear-free world!
The people of Iran can and will free themselves from theocracy. We should support their struggle, and fight any attempt to impose an alternative form of oppression on Iran by any other country.
President Obama, is a wise man.
He learns from the mistakes the US made years ago.
The US should be realy quiet in this case, support the people with only words.
that free people, will not be suppressed.
But rest assured the US is following this very very carefully.
That not gonna work....
remember china... 1 (One man) stopt a collum of tanks.
If I recall correctly, in ww1 or 2 soldiers would use Molotov Cocktails on tanks to burn out all the oxygen in the tanks... something to do with poor ventilation...
That was during the Winter war between the Soviets and Finland during WW2, that wouldn't work now sadly, because most tanks made after the 1960's are tightly sealed to keep smoke and outside flames out.
Worst they could do is somehow manage to block/damage the viewing reticle on the tank guns, which would then reuire the gunner to have to crack open an open air view port or better the main hatch. But doing this would require being very close to the tank and almost or right in front of the cannon and turret machine guns. So it would be suicide to do.
Something tells me that the main guns of the tanks wont be used but the machine guns up top for which [MODEDIT -- do not promote violence or illegal activities]
Most tanks also have a machine gun next to the cannon on the turret itself.
Current tanks used by Iran from Wikipedia:
Zulfiqar MBT 1-3-100+
Chieftain- Upgraded to Mobarez- 400
FV101 Scorpion- 80
M47 Patton/M48 Patton- 168
T-62 - 75
T-72S- Assembled under license in Iran - 480
T-72Z Safir-74/Type 59/Type 69- 540
Tosan- Domestically produced light Tank, based on the FV101 Scorpion
If there were tanks in the streets, it'd probably be the T-72S/Z since they have the most of those, or the Tosan due to its small size it would be able to manuever easier on the streets.
people vs tanks
I have noted on twitter that folks are advising Iranians on how to disable a tank. This may be really bad advice to give folks. Even if the tank skips off the tracks, it is still very deadly, with cannons and machine guns. I would ask folks to think twice before advising people to take on tanks physically.
On the up side, it is one thing to call in the tanks and another for a conscript to fire on his people. Lets hope that some amount of humanity breaks out with the army.
DONT belive this PROPAGANA
and dont trust this "source" peykeiran.com
***THIS IS A EDITORIAL AND IS NO WAY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE WRITER'S BELIEFS, THE AIM IS TO INSPIRE DISCUSSION ON THE FUTURE OF IRAN***
Tiananmen Square was one of the bloodiest revolt of a people against its regime in the 20th century in the name of freedom...Countless of Chinese citizens numbering about 20,000 and countless more remain dead or missing, their whereabouts missing....This is what freedom means to them...How can u expect that 7 so called martyrs are gonna promote change in Iran? Change from a regime that is stern and unyielding will require payment in bloodshed, with serious human lives lost...
If the problem is the theocracy, the fact that Mousavi wins still doesn't mean squat as both Mousavi or Ahmendinijad are still puppets, available to the mullahs every bidding...If u seriously want change then topple the theocracy and don't expect us Americans to help you to do so...Obama the UN and the rest of the Western world are just going to give the theocracy lip service, harsh rhetoric with little bite...
You can appeal to Sunni Saudi Arabia and have a jihad against the Shiite theocracy and later on submit to a bloody civil war just like Iraq and still be under harsh Sharia law...or u can either abandon Islam in favor of Christianity and then your country will have the full support of the Christian crusaders of yore...only then will the US and the rest of Europe really pour money and effort into defeating the theocracy...
what do u think? Armed struggle? or just relying on foreign governments to pressure the theocracy to bend over backwards?
Secular struggle, by the people
on the "pipe dreams" post:
The only way to unite the people of Iran in a battle against the theocracy is a secular struggle. Reliance on schisms within Islam would lead to endless bloodshed and an alternative fundamentalist regime. Christianity is obviously no answer (small minority, and equally divisive). Only a secular movement is inclusive of all.
And foreign intervention, especially from the West, would make matters much worse. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan today, and the whole history of colonialism.
The movement will definitely have to be armed, at least in defensive terms: people's militias based on localities, workplaces, universities are urgently needed just to stop the basiji killings.
But the key is to bring about a general strike to paralyze the regime and starve it of income (nearly half of govt revenue comes from oil and natural gas).
The people also need to set up councils of recallable delegates to organize the struggle and to administer the country as the old regime breaks down.
Handful of sand down the muzzle does the job. But how do you get that close?
Not that there are any tanks in Tehran. I don't buy it.
The United NATIONS won't do shit. They have not done anything helpful in Africa in particular, nor have their "peacekeepers" done much good at all on a large scale.
On tanks, they would have a very difficult time maneuvering in Tehran. There is not proof, nor would it be reasonable to expect a tank to do anything in Tehran. The streets are very tight considering the size of a tank, and the tanks would be unable to roll over streets with things like sewers running directly beneath then (that part of the street would collapse from the weight).
btw on tiananment, look up the riots in Mexico and Burma, the recent ones. 10K dead in Mexico and who knows how many died in Burma.
The UN should be disbanded. They're as useless as tits on a bull.
btw for tanks two things:
1) BLOCK/DESTROY THE VISOR/OPTICS! It is better than "throwing sand down the barrel" or gas, and the optics are obviously exposed. Better than taking down the tracks. From there the tank is utterly useless.
2) Rockets from PVC Pipes? Base them off the small, portable American LAW. Would be cheap and good enough to disable a tank (optics/tracks/gas if it is stored in a tank in the rear).
Ah, I forgot, smoke bombs also work against tanks (lack of optics/ability to easily see, not only for the tank but for everything in a quarter of a square mile):
How to make a Smoke Bomb (non-explosive) Farsi & English #ira... on Twitpic
I don't think the protesters have access to rockets. Or PVC pipe.
why do these scientology protest fags advocate non violence when it's totally fucking different, it's not like iran can do shit to westerners who talk about home made weapons and what not, I think the admins are being retarded with misplaced overzealous morals, this is not scientology there is fucking litigation what is the point in this faggotry
Ich fuerchte das die Soldaten keine Probleme mit sowas haben
Der mutige Student in China konnte zwar diese 4 Panzer stoppen, aber wenige Tage spaeter hatten die Soldaten ueberhaupt kein Problem damit, tausende mit Ihren Ketten zu ueberrollen.
They have to have any kind of pipe somewhere!
After that, a method to launch something (the explosion in the rear of the PVC pipe) can be carried out from things as simple as hairspray. The projectile can be something as simple as thermite or a smoke bomb (lets not kill anyone, smoke bombs preferred!) to freaking potatoes.
In a worst case scenario homemade smokebombs/thermite bombs to stop a TANK! That is, of course, assuming the tank is shooting at someone, which we all hope won't happen .
But it's always good to be prepared! Just in case the absolute worst happens.
btw, for our violence-phobic admins, this won't kill anyone . Smoke bombs won't kill a soul, and thermite will kill someone only if they're paralyzed morons and pick up the bomb THEN do something to detonate it directly over their heads.
the best thing to do would be to hand out copious amounts of kitchen knives and bottles filled with petrol w/ storm matches taped to them
Yeah. I've been hesitant to say this because I know the goal of these protests has been nonviolence. But I really don't see how they can remain nonviolent when they're being shot and beaten in the streets.
This isn't Scientology where they'll try to track you down and sue you or poison your pets.
This is a war. They have to have to be prepared to defend themselves.
Well potato cannons work well. Against infantry.
Get good sized potatoes and press nails and small pieces of glass into them. They're a great delivery system for all that shrapnel.
If you jam them tight enough into a pipe you can get good distance and force.
Just have to plug one end of the pipe, make a small whole in the end and spray a lot of deodorant or flammable liquid in it.
PVC is very strong if they can get it and would easily with stand the force.
But good old molotov cocktails are still the most effective thing imo. Not just because of what they can do but also their psychological effect on police. All the armour in the world is not gonna protect you from fire.
A US/UK/Israel invasion or attack on Iran will not help at all. Believe me, the same thing happened in Iraq. The Iraqi people were liberated from Saddam, but the Islamic world was deceived by it's dictatorships and their propaganda, saying to their people that the US declared war on Islam by invading Iraq... and well you know the rest... hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed. Not only by US but also by bombs from the so called Islamic 'resistance'. The same thing will happen with Iran. Iranians may think that they will be liberated, just as a lot of Iraqis thought the same when the US invaded their country.... but I speak out of experience when I say that it doesn't matter what Iranians and Iraqis think: the Islamic world (the dictators who rule the Muslim countries) will deceive their people again and advise them to go to Iran to fight the infidels who declared war on Islam. Of course we all know that these dictators are not doing this for the sake of Islam, but because they are afraid that they will become the next target for regime change.
yeah, no offense but I don't really care what "I Ran Hubbard" thinks about violence being used against people who shoot peaceful protesters, they bring it on themselves and for shooting at a crowd indiscriminately catching people in the head with bullets who do not expect to die on that day, they should all be fucking burnt to a crisp
Odd that you should think people who advocate non-violence are motivated out of self-protection and/or protecting the site.
I'll give you two alternative (related) motivations:
1) Often it's a much more effective mode of protest, because it generates outrage amongst those who can and subsequently will bring political pressure to bear - and thus is more likely to bring about the change which is sought.
2) Violent protest can 'justify' a violent response - and when your adversary is 10 times bigger than you (or has bigger guns), 'going violent' can provide exactly the excuse they need to crush you, thus ensuring failure.
Never thought about filling potatoes w/ shrapnel.
But yeah, IN THE EVENT OF IMPENDING VIOLENCE, portable cannons, guns, rockets, rifles, and flamethrowers can be easily and, more importantly, QUICKLY manufactured w/ an ample supply of PVC piping, a drill, and a very explosive gas container that could fire shrapnel potatoes (of death), thermite, smoke bombs, oil/something thick and opaque, and any other means by which infantry/tanks can be removed from a fight.
Even before WW2 start, and the tanks was only some steel with windows without glass. For tanks today you need more molotov cocktails, so that the disquisition automatic on tanks run empty, or rpg. But, who know how to operate rpg, and if you have mass of people behind you, its not recommend to shut with rpg (min. dist. behind more than 10 m). Molotov coktails works only if basij or oder police not watch the tanks. So, I can from myself not suggest the tactic "just run on armour". In Serbia was army in the fight against Milosevic neutral, and against Chaushescu in Romania was the army on the side of the people, in different to China.
Because the average American on Brit knows nothing, and doesn't care if an Iranian dies because they think it's the same as when they hear about car bombings and shit in iraq "oh more violence in the middleeast stupid sandniggers", they think violence happens in iran all the time because it's the middle east, are usually racist whether they know it or not and believe that brown people don't feel pain or suffer and think that a dead iranian is another dead potential terrorist, most people don't give a shit if they know nothing about iran, that's why you only see iranian immigrants protesting in western countries.
It's up to Iran to wage a guerilla war to remove the people in power.
I reckon home made smoke bombs can be a very effective tool against tanks or even making quick getaways from alley to alley in order to avoid fire from rooftops..
If they can't see in front of them they'll have a harder time targeting people.
This guy is making decent smoke bombs out of news paper and ammonia. Stuff found in every house.
Furthermore - there is concern about the possibility that posters agitating for more violence by the protesters MAY in fact be spreading deliberate disinformation in order to justify a military crackdown - it's impossible to be sure.
Um guys. . .
Not to play the whole "violence isn't the answer" deal, because sometimes it is, but we have to think strategically. Iran is a moderately developed nation with an enormous military. Attacking tanks with potatoes isn't going to cut it. Military forces, even guerilla forces, take years of development and training, and these kids don't have that kind of time.
We have to think strategically - there's really only two ways they can win. Either, the Assembly of Experts decides they have had enough and send Khamenei packing, or the military decides to step in and there's a civil war. Having the kids start a guerilla war in Tehran doesn't help in either regard. Nonviolence, on the other hand, can work.
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