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This is outragous

Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Nedjarsan, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Nedjarsan Member

    Yer ur right, but i do not think that anyone out of this forum is only looking into Iran but is just focused on it right now.

    I hope we all do not stop with Persia.
  2. Machiavelli Member

    What's the next destination then?
    A simultaneous campaign against Jewish settlers and Hizbollah?
  3. Nedjarsan Member

    I get the feeling u make a joke out of my comment.

    Anyhow that would be a logical step.

    Mainly because if the conflict there would come to an end, a lot of arguments of agressors in the sourrounding countries would run out of fuel, or cookies
  4. Machiavelli Member

    No joke. Definitely not.
    Just question marks because there is so much on this planet that makes me sick.
  5. Nedjarsan Member

    Same to me too...

    But I think a man/woman always has to ask him/herself if they have to decide or do something important in life:

    Does is make a difference ?

    And we are just the ones that are making the difference by not shutting up.

    If we shut up everything will be lost. If not in historical referrences than in humanitrian and ethical aspects.

    And from an personality-development piont of view it is obvious that a big %age of ppls which suffered severe mistreating easier mistreat others.
    (they learned it from childhood as a way to push their interests)
    It is a kind of viscious circle which You only can brake by deminishing the suffering.

    I agree to you that all of this makes You sick.
    But what will change if You stay at home sick ?
    And only because there is a lot to do it does not mean that it is undoeable.
    We will not cope it by looking at the obstacles but only by looking at the opportunities.
  6. Machiavelli Member

    Definitely not staying at home.
    But not trying to dance on all parties simultaneously either...:)
  7. Nedjarsan Member

    Yer too right !

    But for me there will be definately a party after this one
  8. CradleOfCiv Member

    One more thing. You guys wanna change the world? You are crazy

    Some of you may remember my comments about the middle east, little dictators, etc. So I am happy to hear that you are considering a simoulatnious (or even a combined?) campaign against the Jewish settlers and the Hizboullah. Plus discussing these questions alone will do very much to sharpen our understandings beyond what any of us can imagine. So I am hoping in a selfish way, after this party is over, the focus remains on the "middle east." Well, this is where all this started, so forgive me for being so ethno,culturo or whatever centric, but I will make the humble suggestion that this is where the solution to it all lies... And it's one big messy problem..

    Anyways. I completely agree with you, when you say, we don't have time/energy/resources to do everything at once. And I am definitely eager to see this one through first. I just had to make this comment.

    "Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do."
  9. Nedjarsan Member

    The thing is that that conflict is not a question of dictorial leadership.
    It is in a way of course a question of human rights.

    A familiar conflict ( i say clearly that it is not the same) we have seen in Nothern Ireland.

    The thing is that you will never ever reach any long lasting soloution as long as the opposing partys cannot leave stupid "Questions of honour" behind.
    They will have to accept EACHOTHER as 100% respected human beeings with their basic rights.

    I remember that the American indians used to smoke pot ( wheed, grass, hash) BEFORE peace-talks.
    In general that would be good for a lot of hot-heads.
    And we all would be laughing much more than we do now ! (positiv emotion)
    (yer you are all free to jump on me and call me pot- head; i am not, and i am no drug-dealer too, even i thought about it for pure financial reasons lmao)
  10. CradleOfCiv Member

    Goddamn hippie! :p

    But I do think that maybe you do not remember my comments about little dictators. Which is normal, it was a while back and I wasn't exactly using my handle either. Now I am too lazy to go back and dig it out. No matter. I was suggesting that one major cause of problems in Turkey at least is the mind set that might (and only might) makes right. I suspect this is so in other "middle eastern" countries as well. Maybe even more so.. As I perceive a lot of the things in this light, the question of human right (which clearly is the question for me both in Iran and palastine/lebanon/israel etc.) changes it's form. For people to respect human rights, they have to first perceive there are things other then might that makes rights...

    But as tempting as it is, let us not get into this discussion right now.
  11. Nedjarsan Member

    ty for your explanation !

    now i more clearly get your point.
  12. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    Nedjarsan, i hope you are right, my friend. i too hope we do not stop with Persia. we do not have to. as CradleOfCiv states:

    friends, we *are* changing the world. will we leave other countries and other people without freedom? i cannot. not now, not ever. not after this. i cannot.

    i have heard many say,'we are all Iranian tonight'. i cannot adequately express what it means to hear this from so many, except to say i am crying right now.

    when this is over i pray that i may become from Kyrgyzstan. that i am Venezuelan, from Myanmar/Burma, from Tibet and then China, and that we _can_ bring peace to Israel and her Arab neighbors, and that as Somalis we _can_ end factional fighting and restore/rebuild an economy.

    when i do change nationalities in this way, i hope i have as many fine friends and siblings as i share right now. thank you, my crazy and misfit fellow nationals.
  13. Hechicera Member

    I think I will disappoint.

    I am already focused on more than one place, all are places where I live, or where someone who is friend or family lives or has lived. But, in this way we are all connected. Perhaps living in a land of immigrants makes it more urgent for me. My focus is more on understanding, so I can have a more informed opinion. Informed opinions are in short supply here, I need to fix that. I'll start with myself, as that is the only person I have control over.

    I will be focused on my "backyard". In another thread, Machiavelli I think was talking about many things that people knew, didn't know or were perhaps hiding during Hitler's rise to power. I would also add cultural denial. Sometimes you do not want to admit to yourself that the place you live in has problems. It is great to be proud of where you are, and what you are. But, no place is perfect.

    While we are all transfixed by the drama of some Iranians trying to sort out the problems in their backyard, how many of us have looked critically into our own? Honestly, there has been little I can do to help those in Iran. Information is what fits through an internet tube. So, passing on anything helpful, and running a few programs. That's all. Perhaps those of you more important than I are able to have more influence over such a distance. But, think of what I can do for a problem or someone who needs help that is less than 50 miles away!

    Perhaps not all of the problems I can find are as large as what Iranians are dealing with right now. But, I think I'll have plenty to work on with what I do see. :(
  14. Paleene Member

    Agree. Have been "in there" before and will not leave disregarding the place it happens.
  15. Paleene Member

    It's never too late to begin! ;)
  16. Of course you are right, and your sentiment is appreciated, but for the benefit of those posting and reading here, please stay focused on Iran. We are here for that purpose and we shouldn't distract ourselves. As you say, focus is important.
  17. The post was in response to a trend to discuss where to focus next, not where to focus instead of Iran.
  18. Of all the posters to these group there are a handful who I find most credible, insightful and intelligent who's opinions I give more weight than others. Leading that list for me is sp4rrowh4wk. Not only what he/she says but what he implies is well thought out and suggestive of careful and considered thought.

    That being said, I am having a little trouble believing that Ali Larijani is really willing to do what must be done to support the opposition. The only things I have been able to find that suggest that he may be are from sp4rrowh4wk, either directly or quoted from his posts. Every other reference to Larijani I have found, including what are purported his own words suggests otherwise, including those that have not been obviously colored by state run news orgs.

    Now, I understand the double edged sword that must be welded by those who need to maintain their positions of authority so that they may work from within to make change happen. And Raf, who is more powerful and has held the reins of power for a far longer time is obviously better equipped to manage these skills effectively. But I would be much more comfortable if I could find references that suggest that Larijani's loyalties were, if not to the opposition, then to the people of Iran before the current regime.

    Can anyone point me to such info? I would be highly appreciative. I DO understand that the fact that my not reading Farsi makes this more difficult.
  19. Machiavelli Member

    I've been thinking about this as well.

    The Larijanis come in three. They are probably close and allied. Sadegh Larijani has just been named head of the judiciary.

    That's a truly important position, given that the survival of the regime rests on proving or "disproving" the rape allegations. It is thinkable, that everything you heard so far was mere tactics to get Sadegh into office.

    If sp4rrow4wk is correct, I would expect the Larijanis to talk down rape publicly until Sadegh has a firm hold onto his office, then "encounter" proof and make a public U-turn.

    This may be wishful thinking, but then again, if they are true strategists it's not such a strange move.
  20. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you, Unregistered, for the value you have placed in my writing. i hope i will be always able to maintain your respect.

    Unregistered, you are absolutely correct. Larijani really does seem to be anti protester. i am not able to point to anything in writing which would confirm my stance. most of the time i am very distrustful of him myself.

    you are also correct (if i understand correctly) in that Lari must walk a very fine line in what he does. should he lose the ears of the ultra conservatives he would lose his value. because Lari is so conservative he can get to places Raf cannot. for example, no one was surprised to see him at either ceremony for Ahmadi last week. while he was attending at least one of the ceremonies, i am led to believe he gave information directly to Khamenei. is Lari actually Raf's man? i cannot say. but he can deliver a message and directly bypass Mojtaba, who keeps a lot of information from reaching his father.

    also Lari can travel to any number of different places. perhaps 2-3 weeks ago he went to Qom. after his travels, news from the learned and wise more than doubled. Ayatollah Montazeri releases a statement almost everyday. as far as i know, 85% of clerics in Iran support the removal of Khamenei for one reason or another. did Lari meet with the other 15% who reside in Qom? i cannot say, but if you look you will see hard line conservative politicians lashing out at Lari for one reason or another during the time of his trip.

    he may not be Raf's man. but he does hate Mesbah's circle and what has become of the offices of the President and Supreme Leader. he was in Sepah and left (as i understand) in disgust at what they have become. it is important to consider that just as Raf has very strong ties to the military (Artesh), so does Lari have ties to the honorable who remain in the IRGC.

    so, is Lari a friend to the protesters? i continue to doubt it. but for now, he is working to end the regime.

    ps. as speaker of the Majlis, Lari could have squashed the letter and evidence from Karoubi. he did not. what he had to say was unkind and inflammatory, but by releasing it to the Majlis, he gave it a peculiar kind of support (credibility or authenticity, perhaps. as a clarification, no one is looking for evidence of the bigfoot monster. if requested, Majils would simply dismiss the idea), and guaranteed it would remain public. i hope i have been of service.
  21. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    also, if there were something in writing, Lari could be 'proven' to be 'traitorous'. or something similar.

    Machiavelli, you have raised some extremely important points, also.

    Sharoudi has not been doing his job. i think no one is able to refute this. in addition, SLarijani was neither selected nor appointed by Khameni to be the head of the judiciary.

    excuse me? the implications have been 100% overlooked, seemingly by everyone. Khamenei released his 'approval' of SLari late yesterday. the day Slari was supposed to take office and displace Sharoudi.

    Khamenei is supposed to select and appoint the chief judiciary. not anyone else. Khamenei has lost considerable power. ! whoever appointed SLari, is calling the shots in Iran. or the emphasis is not on who called the shots, but simply to emphasize Khamenei is not, as it would not surprise me at all if the next thing to happen was, oh i know not. maybe a new political party formed without the Leader's approval. :) yet still somehow possessing considerable clout.

    Machiavelli, you are very correct when you suggest the kind of machinations you have. such things are common, and are enough to make one's head spin. thank you so much for bringing up the issues of unusual political maneuvering.

    like you, i hope these things are not wishful thinking. in my case, i hope i have not been misled, as it would point to many such errors and my judgment would be in serious question.
  22. akuma_river Member

    I read somewhere, LA Times?, that the trials are a basis of which to frame the opposition and that they are after Rafsanjani.
  23. You make good points, sp4rrowh4wk, as you always do and I thank you. If Larijani is an honorable and intelligent man, and loves his country AND IT'S PEOPLE, rather than just loving the idea of an Islamic Republic, then it indeed doesn't matter whether he supports Raf or Karrubi or even the movement.
    If he is honorable and wise he will want what is BEST for Iran AND IT'S PEOPLE and must work towards a change in it's government, as the current government obviously does NOT CARE FOR IRANIANS.
    If he is honorable and wise he will try to put a stop to the abuses and the abusers. If he is honorable and wise he will recognize the damage done to IRAN and try to reverse it, or at worst, stay out of the way of those who DO recognize this need and are willing to try and fulfill it.
    It doesn't matter if he is of the Sea of Green, it only matters that he can recognize that the Sea of Green is an honest effort by people WHO LOVE THEIR COUNTRY and not something threatening Iran.
    A real reformist is unlikely to be able to rise within this regime to the head of the judiciary. It may well be good enough to have an honorable and wise man in that position. I will continue to hope that, independent of what he has said, Larijani IS such a man.
  24. "SLarijani was neither selected nor appointed by Khameni to be the head of the judiciary."

    Any news headlines I've seen state that the SL appointed Larijani. Please 'unconfuse' me, and thank you very much.

    /seaofliberty
  25. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    i am sorry, Sea of Liberty. perhaps i have once again been misled. i did not read anywhere that Khamenei had appointed SLarijani, however i have been too busy to read adequately recently. i was told that Khamenei did not, regardless of what has been printed. ? as near as i recall, instead of Khamenei releasing statements before other media, this time the media led and Khamenei's office was catching up. i do recall reading Khamenei has released a statement regarding his approval of SLarijani. this statement was released saturday evening, after SLarijani was due to take office, and after Sharoudi has decided- and been empowered to -'extend his stay'.

    one wonders, why does Khamenei release a statement of his approval if he has been the selecting party? clearly, Khamenei approves of SLarijani if he has appointed him... no?

    why is Sharoudi being allowed to stay on? who is behind this process of enabling Sharoudi to extend his term? many strange things are happening in Irani politics these past several days. it is almost like watching a house of cards falling down in very slow motion.

    i have heard rumors of the Assembly of Experts looking into article 111 of the constitution and removing Khamenei. strong rumors- people have really been talking about this for well over a week. if Khamenei were removed tomorrow, likely all he appointed would go as well. in fact, everyone to whom Khamenei has given his approval will go, having been tainted with the stench of recent events. why again did Khamenei give his approval to one he had already 'selected'?
  26. Without Farsi ....

    Thank you for this reply. Am so out of any loop, didn't even know that Sharoudi would continue on .... language is definitely the problem for me.

    Persian thought, as described in many venues, seems quite subtle. I cannot read Farsi, so there you go -- stuck in gear without the original, which is all. (Iran state media - Eng did tell us a few weeks ago that the government had released over 17,000 prisoners, didn't they!)

    Am thinking life would be good indeed in a Humpty Dumpty scenario. Again, thank you.

    /seaofliberty
  27. In 1492

    In America children are taught this little song to learn history dates==>
    In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

    I was taught ==>
    In 1492 Spain threw out the Moor and Jew.

    Now in order to "rightfully" claim the property of those thrown out, members of the Spanish inquisition "converted the dead" to Christianity. Therefore there could never be a land claim by Moors or Jews if they were ever allowed back.
    Please to note that Spain went down the toilet as a world power shortly thereafter.

    So the answer is that the money lies in Rome.
  28. Spain was not a Moor country, Moors coming from Africa conquered Spain in 711 so why Spanish people were wrong to in throwing out the Moors?
    And do you mean that Spain was a power before reconquista, that Ummayad Empire was a Spanish Empire? Because, you see, Spain became an empire in 15 century and was an empire and a leading European country in 16 and 17 centuries. So how is it possible that "Spain went down the toilet as a world power shortly thereafter" i.e. in 1492?
    You post is worthy of vojak Svejk.
  29. I was also very confused about the emphasis on rape. I mean people were beaten and tortured to death, if I was to focus on any one thing it would be those who were tortured to death.

    So I asked an anthropologist.
    He said the two ways of cultural control and learning are:
    1> Guilt
    2> Shame
    I relate:
    They both talk about baby and mommy

    Guilt==I did something wrong. mommy will punish me. I'll try to do better. Please love me mommy

    Shame==I did something wrong & I liked it. if mommy doesn't punish me I'm sure someone else will. But I will not stop because I like the way it makes me feel. I don't care. Kill me if you must. Maybe I'll kill myself because I don't like what I've become.

    The knowledge of the rapes has shamed the clerics. Why?
    Because they now realize they like the way this "addiction to power" feels. It's out in the open for everyone to see. No longer can any thinking cleric pretend that the regime is about g-d. So the moral underpinnings of the Theocracy are dead.

    Those of the regime only care for money and power. They will not be able to learn from either their guilt or shame. Like animals they just eat, drink, sleep, F**k and kill. Animals at least eat what they kill.
  30. Machiavelli Member

    They threw out virtually the whole merchant's and banker's class. Most of them jews, some "moors". Christian's were not allowed to take interest on credit from other Christians, besides they had easier ways to get rich (see Pizarro, Cortez).

    Where did those bankers and merchants go?

    Some to Egypt or Constantinople, most to Portugal, where they were thrown out again, some to northern Italy, where they were thrown out again also.
    Indirectly and over time most ended up in Antwerp and Amsterdam this way.
    Where they flourished. Which made Amsterdam and Antwerp florish. Which is why Spain lost the war against the Netherlands (Eighty Years' War).
    Which is why the Netherlands turned into a powerful empire of merchants and are still a wealthy country, whereas southern Spain is poor.

    Oh, Spain was a great power in the 16th century and those three successive bankruptcies (1557, 1575 and 1596) had nothing to do with sending the Spanish Inquisition after "those evil people"...
  31. Pray for no war; Plan for annihilation

    Plan for annihilation:

    The basiji will have money and will be drunk with power. Invite them to drink in the courtyards--there are many things that only disable and do not kill. Psychotropic substances are always a good choice.

    The basiji will have money and will be seeking the company of women. Men are squeamish to hear about this so have a female compatriot read it. She will understand the sense. One of the ways that women fought back against the rape that followed the march of the Soviet army across eastern europe during WWII was with razorblades. If the soldiers didn't bleed to death they would be so weakened that finishing the task would be easy. Those who already have contracted syphilis/AIDS will would volunteer to play hostess. In any army more deaths are from disease than combat. You are just "helping".
  32. Enough to eat and a roof over my head

    As long as politicians are people there will be corruption. It is not unreasonable to expect a game of musical chairs when the political basis for a country changes. I'm just glad I don't have to do their job sort of the way I feel about policemen and firemen.

    My expectations of any country I live in is that it promote civil society. And we need enough to eat and a roof over our heads; my family, myself and my friends.

    Bard I wish you luck with your agenda.
    The advice from this survivor of WW I is to:
    keep your head down
    ignore any orders that put you in harms way
    learn the joys of hearth and home.
  33. Machiavelli Member

    Larijani again (Sadeg from the judiciary):
    Iran: The Battle over the Judiciary and the Republic’s Future | Enduring America

  34. Paleene Member

    Ty Jaroslav, well put.
  35. Paleene Member

    Unfortunately, the Iranian oppressors are not on the move. So, hurting them during a sexual intercourse would leave the woman identifiable and by that doomed to die :(
  36. Machiavelli

    Moors and jews were thrown out in (1472). Eighty years war started 100 years later (1568) and ended in 1648. Spain was an empire in 16 and 17th century which is what I claimed. Throwing out of jews and moors may had something with decline of spanish empire but in 1472 Spain was not yet an empire so the decline of empire could not have been connected with the event which happened before the country started to be an empire. Of course looking at it from enother point Spain may have been an empire longer if it would not thrown out the jews but that is just a speculation.

    As for the three successive bankrupcies - they were result of government intervention in agriculture and textiles and the rising grain prices in the early sixteen century europe.
    Spain in 16 and 17 centruey was as much of an empire as USSR was an empire in 20 century.
    ***********
    But could it have been an attempt to put Larijani in a good light with some Iranians? The attempt by administration to ensure that Iranians will view Larijani as a good guy who is against the Ahmadinejad government and against the politics of IRGC even if he is not?
    If this was such an attempt it seems to be a successful one.
  37. Hechicera Member

    Yes, but are not most of the women who get arrested and gang raped by the Basij or in prison then killed anyway? I thought I read that in the other thread. :(
  38. Paleene Member

    oh yeah ... "forgot" abt that bit ...:(:(:(

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