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This is outragous

Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Nedjarsan, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Oppressors not yet on the run

    Please understand Paleene that I do not condone these actions.
    I would never want a woman to die due to my advice.

    Not to be insulting to those who already know this but I feel it must be said.
    That being said the only thing I know about women is==>
    One does not ask or tell a woman what to do. They make up their own minds and take calculations as to their own actions. They make choices of whether to take chances or not. Like it or not as men we must realize that self determination is part of full equality for women. This is as it must be. We can not have it both ways.

    Again let me advise against these actions.
    However I do understand that one can have legitimate reasons for killing. I do not approve but know that systematic rape can effect all women to such an extent that some might feel the necessity of drastic action.

    I am anguished but include the following so that proper calculations can be made. I wish this was not the case. There are situations that are less risky than you suggest such as if the John/client/rapist meets the woman alone or a place is suggested by her. If the John/client/rapist is alone, it looks like he just disappeared.

    I prefer the first suggestion where you disable. If at all possible disabling ones opponent is enough.
    To kill is to become like them.
    A mark that is hard to cleanse from ones soul.
  2. More talk of Moors

    I judge a civilization by how it treats its lowliest. For me Spain shrank in moral capital by that action. That the rot at the core took centuries to manifest, is for me not so interesting.

    Thanks for all of the dates. I really should have Spengler's time lines (from The Decline of the West) pasted to my walls in the same way one has a globe for the desk.
  3. Visionary Member

    I've seen what everyone's said in here, especially sp4rrowh4wk.
    But I wonder if it's possible that Larijani cut a deal to reject and work with the parliament to bad mouth the claims made by Karroubi, and that his brother's appointment is the reward for this.
    Not sure if I'm being unnecessarily skeptical of the Larijanis, but the timing of all this seems very suspicious to me.
  4. Visionary Member

    http://iran.whyweprotest.net/news-current-events/30570-outragous-6.html#post64817
    (link to the post I'm quoting)

    I know you've discussed Rafsanjani before and the future of Iran.
    Do you mind if I ask however, where do you think Karroubi will fit into everything?
    He seems to be the most vocal of the protest leaders and has been very visable in one way or another lately.
    I often worry that he'll get himself in trouble with his constant criticisms of the government and very bold language.
    On top of that he seems to becoming hardliner target #1 of late with his letter and everything.
    On the other hand he has not been in a lot of the protests also, the same as Mousavi...I suppose.
    What do you see/hear/think of Karroubi's current popularity (how does he compare to other leaders and how is he viewed) and future role in Iran?
  5. Than I pity the people of Prague because they did not treat well their lowliest, particularly during the reign of Hussites and their faction - Taborites,. I won't talk here about raids in which whole towns were burned and citizens were brutally killed. I won't talk about fratricidal fights where brother killed brother just because they were not of the same religion, but I will talk about the lowliest, the canary in Europe and elsewhere - in 1422 Prague was bathed in blood, it denizens after execution of Jan Zelivsky attacked the culprits, hundreds died - and the culprits were the Jews.
    Judging how civilization treats its lowliest, Hasek, is a complicated task and the judge can often forgot how its own treated others, long time ago.
    As for decline of western civilization - there is a decline and there is a decline, if I were you I would not be so eager to count your chickens before they’re hatched .
  6. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    hello, Visionary, i am glad you are back. welcome.

    i have heard this recently regarding Karoubi:
    - 'he is exceptionally brave' (honorable, shameless, devoted to people, etc. depending on with whom i talk) for releasing this information and forcing (with Rafsanjani) the government to deal with these things. most people are aware, or becoming aware of what has been happening. believe me, Iran will never, ever be the same.

    - 'he should be running the gov with Mousavi, and Montazeri would make a good temporary SL'. ! in some ways Mous is seen as not too different from any other candidate who ran during this last election. this perception is changing (and has changed a lot during the last 2 months). people know Mous as a reformer, but how much? no one has any doubt about Karoubi's reforming stance now. actually, these allegations are more revolutionary, than reformist, for what they could potentially do.

    he wasn't particularly popular before, despite his political credentials.

    now he is popular. the more the regime attacks him, the more popular he becomes. the more he speaks out, the more popular he becomes.

    i have my own reasons why he has chosen now to speak out. they have to do with Rafsanjani's deal to the regime, sort of 'let us try to reform reasonably or you will all lose your positions, your freedoms and probably your lives'. the regime called his bluff, continued pressing their agenda which involved the show trials.

    the show trials are largely geared toward attacking Mousavi and Rafsanjani. the events of yesterday, were almost entirely aimed at Mousavi and 'newspapers'. i think the regime will be slow to change targets, because they have invested a lot of time in breaking people specifically to implicate Mous and Rafsanjani. Karoubi is also a leader. watch as MKhatami becomes more active this week.

    there are too many leaders in the opposition now. the abuse allegations and witnesses and articles hit the regime with so much pressure and loss of face in the region they are literally reeling and desperate. (which is why the military finally spoke up. in other ways as well. loud explosions from training can be heard all over Iran. 'security forces' have begun training, but i assure you the (non-IRG) military has been recently training for over 6 weeks)

    with regard to danger, they cannot be in it much deeper than they already are. everybody has said and done things which cannot be undone. including, for that matter, Ahmadi defying Khamenei, and Khamenei in so many actions committing haram in so many different ways. only fear and tradition has kept any but me from saying anything about Khamenei.

    but now i think even the learned and wise of Qom have called Khamenei a dictator. ! and demanded he be removed as an unfit leader. although letter was unsigned, this is _another_ blow to the regime which is so staggering as to be almost incomprehensible. the next step is a signed letter, or else the Assembly meets. then good bye Khamenei. or maybe war.

    any of these people could have a Mesbah induced accident, or be arrested (including me, if i could be found). this is unlikely because they all have some protection from the military. this action will be the final in a series which will lead to war. no sane people want to go to war; although some have been warned almost from the beginning that war was inevitable, given the mindset of the Hojjatieh.

    i hope i have been of service, i have to go now and will be back later, God willing.
  7. Machiavelli Member


    Hola unregistered!
    Parece que has oído algunas cosas sobre la historia de Espana.
    Pues, vamos a ver lo que dices...

    The throw-out: Alhambra Decree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia was 1492.
    The throw-out from Portugal was a few years later.
    The influx of Jewish merchants in Amsterdam after that led to an economic boom there.

    Spain in 16th century was a military super-power without economic backbone. Totally dependent on the mines of Potosí, which had to run out someday. (Rising grain prices where a direct effect of silver-inflation created by the dependence on these mines.) The economic infrastructure was shit. The absence of any reasonable form of banking and an underdeveloped urban population (in spite of the former medieval mega-cities of Andalusia) were only two aspects of many, but important.

    In 1568 this super-empire that ruled the world (from 1580 on all of the world, because it included even the Portuguese possessions) was taken on by a tiny, tiny rebellious merchant republic. That the tiny, tiny merchant republic won is one of the great lessons of history. Innovation, rule of law and determination are nearly invincible.
    Never throw out hard-working, peaceful citizens, only because they're different, may be another lesson. They might be useful after all.
  8. Nedjarsan Member

    With all respect, i had not mentioned Spain to start some historylessons about a time of spain that is not referring to the conflict going on now.

    Besides that real quick:

    For more than 100 years there was a peaceful living together of different religious groups in spain under its Muslim reign ( southern part).
    From my knowledge that was also not purely the time of power of the Mores but under the leadership of the great sultan.

    The uprizing of Amsterdam is not based on Jewish money or influence but emerged with the efforts of the reformed christian groups having a strong stand in the Netherlands. (Calvinists)
    These groups of traders where the ones to found the "Oost Indische Companij". Bringing in goods from the far east and taking part in the "triangel-trade" which includes transferring "human capital" (slaves) to northern America.
  9. CradleOfCiv Member

    Hey, you are not a disappointment. In fact I think it was vital that you brought this point forward. Yes the only way we can change the world is by changing ourselves. As Gandhi once said: "Be the change you want to see in the world."

    But I do feel that at least for some of us, you are under-perceiving our attitude. Obviously, the boys and girls of Iran are very much aware that there are problems at home and are working with clear determination to fix them. There are also others among us, from many different countries, who perceive problems right here at home and try to fix them. And perhaps it's just that our understanding of home is not limited to state borders.
  10. Nedjarsan Member

    thats my man...

    Exactly. Just to remember: nearly 60% of the population of Iran is aged under 30.
    This is the main group which rights are violated.
    A lot of regime-leaders, still sitting on their little island, still not understanding, that their futur are not the old ppls with their old ideas.
    Our futur, no matter where we live, are our children, our youth.
    Like in all societies happened before, unrests and vains start if the olderppls establishment looses its contact to the youth.
    Look at the roaring 60ties, Woodstock, late 70ties...
    The futur does lot lie in the hands of the old but in the hands of the young.
    How the old can expect true respect if they doe not hold contact to the desires of their kids, and how u dare not to listen if You really love them.

    The changes always came...
    And they mostly came and where carried by the young ones.
    Not always to the desired extend but they came.

    With great respect i look at the brave young Irani standing up for their rights.
    Some day the old will die and who will be there then ?

    Exactly...

    All my heart, tears and prayers to all tortoured, suffering and dead Irani and their families.

    May Your Hands Never Hurt
  11. Machiavelli Member

    Must read article:
    MikVerbrugge : Insider Opinion : Rafsanjani's appearance was a show of strength.

    another one on Larijani:

    The Associated Press: Iran chief judge hints at trials for prison abuse

  12. Which is true, however at that time hard-working, different citizens were not thrown out only because they were different, they were also thrown out because many of them backed the enemy of Spain, to wit, the Moors.
    This tiny rebelious merchant republic was backed by England (ever heard of Elizabeth the First and the Spanish Armada), France (hugenots and their former Huguenot king Henry of Navarre) as well as some German duchies. They had quite a large number of protestant allies and they were also lucky because (mainly catholic) France did not support Spain.
    Sultan may have been great but Moors were conquerors, today we would equate them to imperialists. . Further it was not the catholic Spain who was the immediate reason for decline of Moorish empire in Iberia but fanatical Muslim tribes who came from Northern Africa and destroyed the Islamic civilization in the peninsula. They, you see, did not like the relative tolerance which was then the rulein Andalusia, they deemed it unIslamic.
    As for Netherlands, Jewish commerce was one of the reasons why Amsterdam and Rotterdam became large, prosperous cities, they brought with them the trading wealth. However they were not the reason why Spanish empire fell down.
    ********
    Could you explain to me why IRGC is seemingly supporting Ahmadinejad (according to the article above). Is the article wrong in stating that?
    I also have one question, presently everybody is against Ahmadinejad, from conservatives to reformists to many clerics. But I really would like to know what the people are for, what kind of changes, if any, Iranians want when Ahamdinejad rule is over.
  13. Visionary Member

    Thanks so much for your insight!
    I really appreciate your response and your effort at explaining all that.
    Take care! And be safe.
  14. Hechicera Member

    Apologies, I do not think I do. But it was not my intent to give that impression. And, the discussion was about what to do next, so hopefully this hypothetical has to do with Iran in a better situation.

    Of course there are. How many in the US though? ;) I live in a funny country! We are great! We have no problems! We are not limited to state borders! Ergo, we are not limited in exporting our "not problems" by state borders either. ;) Yes, the response is more than a bit snarky.

    I do not wish to derail this thread further with this side-track of a side-track, I will send you a less snarky message though since I picked on you with the snarky reply. :eek:
  15. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    thank you, Roe Lassie. i am very heartened to know that i am of some service.

    i sincerely hope the clerics of Qom do not move to Najaf. i believe religious tradition, any culture's religious traditions, are valuable for any number of reasons and would like to see the Learned and Wise of Qom, Mahshad and elsewhere in Iran remain.

    however having said that, i also sincerely hope that when the regime falls it takes Qods force with it. that is i am saying, i hope Iran stops arming, training, funding- indeed in all ways exporting -terrorism. the state sponsored terrorism receives its legitimacy from religion. this is such an obvious perversion and sacrilege that i cannot understand why so many others are swayed from or diverted from truth.

    in any event, if Iran continues to support terror, then i strongly approve of the move to Najaf, or anywhere else for that matter. by removing the religious legitimacy from Iran for this purpose, the new government will have to pay more to keep those who would remain interested in their foul work. such a move represents real financial pressure for the new government. to say nothing of the continuing loss of face in the Persian Gulf.

    as far as a time frame, i am not sure if you mean a possible move to Najaf, or the regime falling.

    for the first, we will have to see what becomes of Qods force or similar. if a secular democratic government is instituted, with no exporting of terror, i cannot see the clergy moving at all.

    for the second, we will have to see what obstructions will be in place for SLarijani to pursue justice against the perpetrators of these travesties. if the right people are prosecuted successfully, a new government will be forthcoming quite soon. as current regime members are moved out, new ones need to take their place. indeed, SLarijani is possibly the first member of this new government. if there is a war, (still a probability) then matters will be considerably more complicated. now that both sides of the militaries involved have spoken, war seems more imminent. i hope the regime's 'security forces' (terror) training in northwest Iran is ended, one way or another, quite quickly.

    i hope i have again been of service. thank you, Roe Lassie.
  16. Idiomagic Member

    Questions for Sp4rrowh4wk

    Sp4rrowh4wk,
    First, thank you so much for your continued presence here, and for sharing your insights and wisdom with us.

    Second, I have a couple of questions I was hoping you could shed some light on. Your opinion would be very helpful to me.

    In view of Ahmadinejad's reported purging of the intelligence ranks, do people in Iran think some of those disaffected intelligence people could break with the establishment and give public or private aid or information to the opposition - if not because they support any or all of the opposition's stands, because they disapprove of being fired, or of their agencies and departments being used for personal vendettas by Ahmadinejad?


    How bad is the economy in various areas of Iran - is it worse in the cities, or does it cut across geographic boundaries? Is it hitting farmers worse than urbanized middle class residents, for instance, or is the hit across those boundaries as well? And how do the bad economy, job losses and inflation intersect with the opposition's political demands?

    Thank you, Sp4rrowh4wk.
    Your sister-in-spirit,
    Gwyndyn Alexander
  17. Nichol Member

    Just want to add a few remarks: the throw-out of the jews was preceded by a number of less-serious-throw-outs. The 1472 date might be one of those.

    Regarding the dutch revolt & republic: the most important refugees were the protestants from Flanders, which had large cities involved in industry (cloth), trade, beautiful art, etc (said to have invented oil-painting). Other infusions of refugees were the spanish and portugese jews, but there was also a later wave of french huguenots. Various famous scientists from central europe migrated to the netherlands as well. Descartes came from France.

    There actually were some heavy-handed calvinists in the dutch republic that were nearly taliban-like in the way they pursued their opponents, and in their anti-science stance, but they did not really get what they wanted.

    The United East & West India companies were very important, but the most important trade was still based on North-Sea herring, trade for wood and grain with scandinavia (Hansa), wool with england, making cloth to trade further. One big innovation was the stock exchange of Amsterdam, soon copied by other big European cities.

    The slave triangle trade was a part of the West-India Company trade, but not the basic/only moneyspinner.

    The jews, many in Amsterdam, were an important group, but a minority. It would be wrong to say they caused an economic boom.

    .. it doesn't change the obvious idea that one should avoid chasing away valuable citizens, not welcoming new ones, or not giving everybody a chance to contribute to their full potential ;)
  18. Can we please not splinter this thread?
  19. sp4rrowh4wk Member

    hello Gwyndyn, thank you so much for your kindness, i hope i am able to continue to receive such generosity.

    Ahmadi's former intelligence chief was sacked for his report that the green movement was not instigated from foreign intervention. the intel chief was saying, 'i do not agree with you about how you are handling this crisis'. he may have been saying some other things as well, because my sources state he has gone to work for Rafsanjani and everything he knows Raf knows, and most of that the greens know.

    the purge in the Ministry of Intelligence represented Ahmadi's attempt (and the coup leadership's attempt) to gain full control of the intelligence apparatus. they did accomplish that, it seems, but severely overestimated either their competence, or the part that such an organ could play. (please excuse the pun, i cannot help it. a disease of sorts :) )

    all those people are reported to be helping the opposition.

    the economy is in really very serious shape. because of the way the economy has been artificially stabilized for so long, all areas of Iran are feeling the effects. unemployment is very severe. inflation, when all factors are taken into account is huge and skyrocketing.

    the bad economy is very bad news also for Ahmadi. he should have been able to claim many benefits from windfall oil profits, but has not do to poor management. all this economic news hurts the regime as much as anything else. there has been no real, organized general strike- however, many people have not been paid in months or years. many people are slowing down their work, or just walking off. textile workers, sugar workers, oil workers (until the basij arrived). all of this bad feeling about the economy is blamed on Ahmadi and Khamenei, and by extension, the Hojjatieh coup, now that people are beginning to learn more about that.

    i hope i have been of service to you and others, Gwyndyn. thank you, again.
  20. Nichol Member

    .. sorry for my rant on dutch history. I was out before I knew :)
  21. Visionary Member

    Iran's Mousavi says government agents raped detainees | International | Reuters

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