Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by rickybobby, Aug 21, 2013.
And he also called Anonymous "a bunch of haters".
Well, actually that is a very good description of Anonymous
Why so silent. what you said is or was pretty lame
AnonLover, very thorough and insightful. You obviously gave this a lot of thought and - unfortunately - it does make sense. There sure is a lot of in-fighting, black PR and fair gaming going on. And I'm not talking about the scilons. I can look back and see how sucked into I've gotten.
What's also depressing is even though I know you meant to defend TO, your comments actually apply to TO's very own post today:
So...nothing of value was lost and all that. But yeah. As you suggest, I guess it's time for a break.
See you again down the road, maybe.
I was hoping somebody would pick up on that. I fully intended to be an equal opportunity hell-giver. And I readily admit I too have taken an embarrassing turn or two in the critic-on-critic rut of frustration. It effects all of us eventually, whether we realize it or not. What you don't pro-actively avoid has a tendency to still bite you in the ass while your looking at it in the face and knowing full well what it is.
Very much appreciated both of these posts. Hearts from my polyester stuffing.
AL, it's good to see you, you make some very good points (and incidentally, nice work on the recent documents released).
I'd moderate your commentary somewhat with the observation that the kind of infighting you describe isn't unique to anti-Scientology. OSA doesn't help, of course, but internecine conflict is pretty much a fact of life in most political movements, workplaces, etc etc...
It's been going on at least since Achilles ragequit at the beginning of the Iliad:
Of course, Monty Python has some wise words on factionalism:
Orwell's Homage to Catalonia is pretty interesting in this respect too, the different anti-Fascist forces in Spain were bitter rivals.
Touché and well put. Although, ...
WhyWeProtest v. Old Guard Critics v. Ex-Scientology Message Board v. Underground Bunker v. Moving on up a Little Higher v. Milestone Two v. Operation Clambake Message Board v. ...
OSA loves to stir this pot of minor disputes and petty grievances.
Don't let them.
^ this, and
If that's what you're getting from what's been posted here in the last day, it's different than what I'm seeing.
AnonLover pointed out through her extensive FOIA research that there have been major attempts to shut down scientology including by powerful, judicial and legislative US agencies. They didn't take them out - obviously. There has also been documented bickering and in-fighting amongst various persons and groups engaged in the fight going back to the 60s and 70s.
She further points out that saying the scientology end is near (I would add the ugh-worthy phrase "tick, tock") is toxic and falling into a cult mindset because "end-is-near" indicators like major loss of real estate, money and legislative actions banning them are just not coming up at all in AL's extensive dox gathering.
I would go even a step further and say that it's the opposite. The cult has billions in the bank earning multi-millions in interest. They have billions more in property. They keep investing in showcase, multi-million dollar real estate worldwide at undermarket prices which diversifies their portfolio and is likely to appreciate on a medium to long-term basis. The 20-year case to kick their ass in Belgium (and Europe) has gone completely into the shitter and nothing is going on to ban them in the US. Sure there's some stuff going on with Narconon, but is that going to ban scientology around the world? No. In the meantime, they have already reset with Narconon 2.0 and have bought even more new prime real estate. And just as importantly but hardly mentioned enough, they have a bottomless legal fund to buy the best and most expensive attorneys in the world to battle, extend and defeat legal cases. Anyone wondering about that just needs to review any of the threads about failed suits against the cult, including this one by Mosey Rathbun.
VacaTime and AL pointed out that TO, the biggest and baddest anti-sci reporter there is, has himself has fallen into the cult-like trap with his scientology apocalypse headline yesterday.
Fishypants points out that in-fighting hasn't happened only with battling scientology but in any battles.
All of the above I find to be true. YMMV.
So what I don't get is how this translates into staying the course by not engaging in any internal in-fighting.
Who is making the rules that in order to fight scientology, there is to be no criticism at all between fellow scilon fighters because it's OSA making that all happen?
You know what? Fuck OSA.
Honest and legitimate criticism is a right in the free world and human nature. Sometimes that can become called in-fighting. But that's just part of real life not something caused by OSA. They aren't making me think a certain way. If they and their tek were really that powerful, then they really are OT and it's game over for all of us anyways - LOL. So why even bestow them with so much importance and abilities that we need to be careful about speaking out? Just because of some stupid thing lron said?
As for "staying on target", I'm not sure what that exactly is at this point. Help bring about the next-month/year/decade/century/millenium apocalypse of scientology? Tick-tock the midget to jail somehow by just saying it over and over on the Internet? Believe that anyone in the fight is in God-mode and is incapable of doing any wrong or being criticized in any way?
AnonLover's suggestion is that there might come a time when you need to shut up or fade away either temporarily or for good. I guess this struck a chord for VacaTime.
I don't know if I'm ready to do any of that yet. But I am wondering what AnonLover and anyone else now thinks is the target.
Bring Longcat back!
Not at all. It's a response to the video, which was hilarious. Some criticism among critics is definitely healthy as long as it doesn't devolve into Montey Pythonesque absurdity.
CC your question re: what is the target at this point should be the bellowing elephant in the room for us Anons.
Normally, I refuse to acknowledge any screeching nutsack shitwhore who says "tick tock" more than once a decade as anything even remotely akin to a human being nor bother assuming they have a brain. But in your case, I will make an exception.
We have no target. That is our problem.
Our original "message to scientology" targets and goals was laid out over 8 years ago. In internet time, that's like four fking decades. So, doh! We no longer have targets or goals that make any sense imo, cuz their all old and decrepit and fail to take into account how the cult has evolved and adapted since Chanology set off the domino effect following all the good we triggered.
IOW, we were too damn lazy to adapt out Scifaggotry 2.0 targets so here we sit in the shadow of Scifaggotry 5.1 with no fks to give about reassessing our tactics and/or re-branding our strategy. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, as long as the fight continues elsewhere.
Personally, and I mean that literally as in -FOR ME ONLY- I see ^^That as useless faggotry and I reckon do-nothingness is akin to allowing Scientology to recover from blows leveled on them in the recent past. So I've been working solo, setting my own goals and hitting my own targets these last few years with 2 simple guidelines: continue to make the cult bleed people and money, and try to help/protect anyone else who is likewise making them bleed.
Best case scenario: this is a longcat war of attrition and when Chanology was at its peak we were responsible for just a few short-lived babysteps in the fight. Also, the billions of stashed cash in cult coffers is grossly exaggerated, just like claims of cult-is-dying is blown so far out of proportion it is deep into the cultic propaganda endzone.
Worst case scenario: I don't want to speculate, but let's just say the best case scenario above is me and everybody else left on this board smoking crack and giving DM daily blowjobs on Hollywood Blvd.
FWIW, I'm not the only former chanologist, with nothing local to protest, who is working solo. For those former anons who still continue to do whatever they can but have moved on in life, I've seen/chatted-up these types of actionable targets that are still happening quietly from behind the scenes:
Keeping an eye on things and firing harpoons as needed to hold the line and make sure the ground we gained isn't lost.
Monitoring the empty buildings in their local area and reporting code violations and other shit whenever possible.
Following up on Rod Kellar's cult expansion spam line with harpooning anything easily hit (when he still had his own sec check blog tracking every nook and cranny the cult 's tentacles crept into).
Trolling obvious OSAbots (or jaded 'tards who act just like OSAbots) to get them to waste time here on WWP to buy cover for the front line (TO investigative work) and the back line (scn reddit... HELLO! We have a nextgen line of critics in the works guise, something no other past group of critics ever had in place before dying out)
Relaying knowledge to the nextgen line of critics on reddit AND keeping the one moonbat nutter in their ranks in her place with gentle counter trolling when she pushes her agenda too aggressively (the two prolific FZ'rs on that board, one a mod and one not, are BOTH the same cray cray ex-martyite turned M2 fan. She's all but self-doxxed herself publicly, so those who need to know who she is already do). UPDATE: this past week Marty and Alanzo slimed their way onto scn reddit board looking to build a new fan club for their infighting drama. So reddit is no longer the final nutter-free frontier for feeding inquiring minds what they need to know to carry on in our wake someday. This may or may not require some additional hands on deck to engage in interference running so their always-attack cancer isn't spread.
I don't really consider ^^this stuff targets, but more like maintenance mode support work.
Yeah I'm kind of in stasis mode because there isn't a lot I can do but if the cult tries to establish here ever again then I'll be ready. The only thing remotely close to putting me off is some exes still acting like the arrogant shits they were inside the cult and not being able to deal with anyone who thinks their intersecting daisy-chains are laughable. Mind you they can kiss my Ulster arse and damned well like it.
Me too hates the tick tock.
That is one mental cunt. I mean it's cruel that her 'friends' encourage her to post those videos instead of stopping her make such a freak show of herself. I can't decide what's worse - the tone deaf wailing or the fact she looks like she's taking part in a gurning contest.
+1 "actionable targets"
I would include Wikipedia as an important subsection within that.
It's my opinion that the significant progress which has been made on Narconon has been assisted by the fact that whenever anyone (including lolyers, court officials and victims) looks it up on Google, the first sentence of the first paragraph of the first search result says "Narconon International is an organisation which promotes Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard's theories of substance abuse treatment and addiction".
Given the ongoing attempts by apparent Scientology staff (or at least supporters) to undo some of that good work on Wikipedia (I'm thinking about Laval and that other one) then I'd suggest that keeping an eye on Wikipedia changes, and where necessary reverting them and following up with the persistent wikibureaucracy necessary to keep them reverted, is a useful function.
For what it's worth, my own opinion on the cult's current status (key performance indicators from the point of view of the cult itself, based on the imperfect information I have - high scores mean the cult is doing well):
- Balance sheet: 10/10 - very large reserves of cash and property remain
- Profit and loss: 2/10 - supply of new customers seems to have dried up except where Scientology connection can be concealed. Major donors seem to be dwindling.
- 3/10 - shortage of capable senior management, hidebound 1950's management practices, significant 'churn' of existing staff, difficulty recruiting/retaining new staff.
- 8/10 - Investigation by law enforcement in USA seems to have stalled, civil suits in USA continue to settle (probably for sums which are a very small proportion of Scientology's overall assets). Strong government resistance in Germany, France and Russia is compensated by increasing Scientology presence in emerging markets (e.g. Taiwan, Poland, Mexico). Tax breaks continue in USA and UK.
- 3/10 Severe damage over the past decade to the public image of Scientology and its front groups, in the English-speaking world. Dominant information sources on the internet (Google, Wikipedia, etc) are profoundly negative about Scientology and its front groups. Mainstream journalists (e.g. John Sweeney, Louis Theroux, Lawrence Wright) and major media outlets (e.g. New Yorker, Daily Mail, BBC) are no longer deterred from tackling Scientology. Recruitment of major celebrities has stalled. Non-anglophone markets remain short on Scientology information and therefore represent an expansion opportunity.
I'd be interested in whether other people think this is a clear-sighted assessment.
I've intentionally refrained from assigning credit for progress to any particular group (OG, Anons, Indies), because (IMO) being anonymous isn't about trying to claim credit for things, and also just because I think it's invidious and counter-productive. I'd invite other people to do likewise (i.e. refrain from claiming or assigning credit for such progress as you think might have been made).
What would be really good would be to get some objective (or at least objective-ish) metrics to assess change - are there any online tools available to assess positive/negative sentiment of a brand and how it's changed over time?
Seems reasonable to me.
In my view, there is no action that can be taken that is likely to finish off Scientology. What can be done is to ensure that their bad reputation persists and make sure that it follows them as they try and get into new geographical areas and via new front groups.
Additionally, general efforts to combat pseudoscience and the free pass given to religious organizations create a less favourable environment for either their dessert topping or their floor wax.
Their decline could have a very long tail but so long as they can't recruit any better than they are now they can't reverse it.
Taiwan by itself, is a very small market for scientology, but the strategic value to Miscavige is quite high as it could serve as a gateway into the People's Republic of China, a huge market that the cult would like to infiltrate.
Very unlikely to happen. China doesn't have freedom of religion, and won't allow the scientology corporation to set up any kind of office. If it did, even clandestinely, it would be torn down in a heartbeat. China is the first country to successfully censor the internet when everyone else thought this would be impossible. Compared to that, keeping the scientology corporation out is cakewalk.
But the cult does not think that way. Miscavige and his minions are constantly looking for ways to "get their stats up" and "get more bodies in the shop" so, recruiting a person with influence in the government by bribe or blackmail would be "the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics".
In the U.S., the IRS beat the cult in every court case, but all it took was one very gullible Bill Clinton to make all those battles largely irrelevant and give scientology tax exemption.
The cult can think what it likes, and machinate all it wants, but it's not going to make any inroads into China under the current government system.
Even if by some miracle the cult managed to hook one or two high officials, there's no way that would be enough to allow the cult in, since there would be huge opposition from the rest.
See Falun Gong, and Christian churches. The government barely even tolerates Buddhist monasteries, historically the official religion, allowing only a handful to operate.
I would guess that they would downplay the "religion" aspect and push the "self-help" aspect in China, which is what they do in Israel. China is fairly woo-friendly so that might get some traction, though China is likely to be wary of the organization itself anyway.
Let's not forget Colombia and the Caribbean too.
I agree with you, so you can stop the rant. My point is that they will continue with their grandiose plans even if those plans are destined to fail. Scientologists are the folks who live in a science fiction fantasy world.
Only if the woo is locally grown owned and operated, and only with the protection of local party officials.
Even if the cult didn't call itself a religion, which they have gotten away with in Israel because laws, in China the courts are under complete control of the dictatorship and will never rule against their wishes.
Also preying on people in the Ukraine with new centers.
Today Rathbun posted another bizarre, bitter rant.
Bunkeroos vs. Scientologists
The cult of Tony Ortega has recently surpassed the church of Scientology in dysfunctionally partisan behavior. I have obtained documentary evidence that Bunkeroos (slavish believers and followers of the word of The Underground Bunker) have been soliciting donations to hire private investigators. The Bunkeroos are promoting the fulfillment of Tony Ortega’s published suggestions on behalf of Ray Jeffrey that the home of Monique Rathbun and her two-year-old child be put under surveillance.
What is so surreal about this situation is that had Monique Rathbun not selflessly endured similar treatment in the past, Tony Ortega and Ray Jeffrey would have long ago become Scientology road kill. The same is true for the cluster of vermin who have partnered in the Ortega/Jeffrey campaign against Monique Rathbun.
Here are some of the comments below the article:
SunnyV | June 30, 2016 at 1:32 pm
Unless you post this supposed secret “proof” you have been made privy [to,] you’re just making baseless accusations because no one particular is interested your bizarre paranoid war on Tony Ortega.
I guess getting no interest in your non-trolling posts against Tony means you will try to milk this pointless drama for web hits. This is a sad, disappointing chapter to what had been a inspiring evolution in your life.
Mark C. Rathbun | June 30, 2016 at 1:43 pm
In due time. QED: Double-standard cult think. Your leader can backstab people with months of innuendo and unnamed sources. But you give him a pass. I hope you find some caring treatment.
UhLasare | June 30, 2016 at 1:53 pm
When is due time? Because this is an amazing accusation to make without posting proof. Thank you.
Mark C. Rathbun | June 30, 2016 at 1:58 pm
You are right. Stay tuned.
Tommy Prophet | June 30, 2016 at 5:51 pm
“Tony Ortega’s published suggestions on behalf of Ray Jeffrey that the home of Monique Rathbun and her two-year-old child be put under surveillance.”
This is hard to believe.
Could you please provide a link to the article, or post, that states the published suggestions to surveil?
And, please understand I don’t want to argue, I’m not taking sides, not accusing, not suggesting anything, not defending Tony, not attacking anyone, not questioning anyone’s integrity, and not anything else.
I am just asking a question.
Mark C. Rathbun | June 30, 2016 at 7:37 pm
Read their four month series attacking my wife, then me including all Jeffrey/Ortega comments. If you don’t see it, so be it.
If there are PIs watching the Rathbuns, how is Marty sure that they aren't hired by CoS? (The most likely suspects.)
It's not like he has a legal settlement with them, right?
What does that even mean?
I guess Marty forgets that Tony has been reporting on Scientology since before he blew, possibly while he was still running Scientology's road kill machine. Lots of critics have been around longer than Marty has been out, and suffered Fair Game, but Marty seems to think it all started with him. *sigh*
Here are two more comments that have been posted below Rathbun's rant:
Kuato Lives | June 30, 2016 at 8:12 pm
You can’t quote or link to a specific statement of his saying to surveil your family because it only exists in your mind. I suppose all the “Bunkeroos” expressing shock and disbelief regarding your accusations are just putting on a show? You’re embarrassing yourself.
Mark C. Rathbun | June 30, 2016 at 8:38 pm
No, Bunkeroo minds, Bunkeroo.
Er, that sounds like nonsense to me. There's no way I'll go anywhere near believing that without evidence.
Seems like Marty has been staring into the Abyss for too long. Poor Mosey.
THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE
Hmm. I wonder who controls that account now? Proxy-up to read if your IP address is an issue.
Marty intends to write his last(?) book about Scientology as soon as he clears the vermin out of the garage:
* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *
Sonya | June 30, 2016 at 3:37 pm | Reply
(When) are we going to get this book that you wrote about in this blog post https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2013/12/26/scientology-armageddon/ ?
Mark C. Rathbun | June 30, 2016 at 4:02 pm | Reply
Just as soon as I clear the vermin out of the garage. Patience.
* * * * *END EXCERPT * * * * *
The link references Marty's 2013 mention of the following anticipated book:
* * * * * BEGIN EXCERPT * * * * *
Posted on December 26, 2013 by Mark C. Rathbun | 212 Comments
This is a preview of the last of three books on my 2014 schedule, reference: 2014 schedule.
Scientology Armageddon: What Led America’s Most Vengeful Cult to its End Times
* * * * * END EXCERPT * * * * *
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