Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

Discussion in 'News and Current Events' started by Whitehat, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. Whitehat Member

    Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    You know ones who are not Scientologists but no matter how many times you explain to them they answer.

    1. Why Scientology when there is *Insert X*.
    2. Anonymous is just as fanatical as Scientology,
    3. Crazy kids you can't do stuff like that anymore!
    4. Anonymous is going to go on killing sprees or blow up buildings.
    5. The Medical reports can be fake. (So I won't look at them)
    6. The FBI reports can be fake. (So I won't look at them)
    7. There is no way they could get away with *Insert* so it must be false.
    8. Who cares what Scientology does to their own members?
    9. You're insane if you support them.
    10. They are exactly like *Insert Crazy Group* (Ex: New World Order groups, etc)
    How many have have ran into this.

    Note: OSA follows the same protocols, any suggested counters to these ten?
  2. Anonymous9999 Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Because it's a fight we can win.


    Look around you. It's happening.

    Why? Because discovering that you have power, or a sort, makes you evil? Hardly. Discovering that you have power makes you more of whatever you already were, nothing else.

    And that's why Scientology succeeds. Because of apathy, and because people are to lazy and chickenshit that they might feel the impulse to do something *good*, so they hide from reality in willful ignorance.

    Anyone with a shred of *real* decency - which is not the same as being polite. Fuck polite.

    You're ignorant if you don't.

    No. And wallowing in your deliberate ignorance excuses nothing.
  3. FALLEN Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Did you know that Scientology has earned billions of dollars in the past few years selling their copyrighted "religious" textbooks and thru corporate subsidary programs, and yet they pay NO TAXES?

    Yeah, they conducted the biggest infiltration of the US government in history. Then they sued the IRS and got special tax exemptions that nobody else is allowed to take. And the secret deal with the IRS is sealed, so nobody knows how they did it. No other "religions" get the same huge tax breaks.

    I guarantee you, if your friends and family don't give a shit about anything else, this WILL get their attention. Money talks, people.

    Then you slowly walk them into the other stuff. :wink:
  4. AnneOminous Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    I\'ve run in to several of these, parents and friends.
  5. syryem Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Yeah, I've got a buddy at work who told me that he doesn't care about it cause the things Scientology does don't directly affect him. I wanted to pull my hair out :|
  6. Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Copypasta of someelse's post that I found helpful:


    I don't think being direct is the best way. I think that talking about awful things in the world, steering the topic towards the weirdness of cults, and the weird things they do. This is where people start laughing about the silliness of scientology. Wooo, aliens from outer space. You'd have to be nuts to join. Unfortunately, this is where most get stuck. This is about as far as media goes too.

    And for your situation, I DO blame the media. Who CARES about something, unless it's in the news?

    You need to get them to stop laughing. Speaking of how weird it is, did you know that it believes in seperating familes that try to leave the church. How dare they have the right of telling people who is fit and not fit to be a parent! And if you speak out against this, you can be stalked and harrassed? That's scary! I read a story about this woman, and they planted all kinds of fake evidence on her, took her to court, told all her neighbors that she was a criminal, all these awful things to make her life hell. If you're on the inside, and you try to leave, the same thing will happen. If you're on the inside and you say something against the church, you could even be taken to one of their prison camps. How do people even get suckered into something like this? I'd never let that happen! Well, it's a subtle process. People go looking for help, and they'll tell you what's wrong with you. Not what's actually wrong mind you, but what they want to tell you. After months of being manipulated, and helped, that's the carrot on the stick. You lose focus of reality, and focus on just the carrot. While you lost your focus, a new relality is inserted. This is how people get tricked. Now, they're part of the elite, and they think they're better than anyone else. And you're so proud to be part of a group who's better than everyone else, the outside world is so uneducated. Teach me more! My destiny is in your hands, help me improve myself and the rest of the world!

    It's like Amway crossbred with the mafia. Only, Amway has some decent products, and the mafia has some benefits. This "church", has neither. You'd think someone would have tried to stop them! But, who? Who indeed.

    My progress in understanding this cult, went from "Cult", to months later "Destructive cult", to years later, "Dangerous Cult", to now....where I've learned a lot, but I STILL don't know enough. I've seen enough to know that it's worth fighting. But the hole keeps going deeper! After years of educating myself, I still don't know enough. So, don't expect people to learn instantly. It's what the church wants. They want their secrets. They want people not to care.

    But, some people just want to make sure their local football team wins.

    I don't think "recruiting" is necessarily the right way to think about it. .I think education is the best method. Education does the recruiting itself. Joining is a personal choice, and can't really be coerced out of anyone. Educating them that a choice can be made, that something CAN be done however...
  7. alsocake Member

  8. Amomynous Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    These are the top three I've run across (actually in this order, too):

  9. anonymous3347 Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    1) Why scientology when there are so many other bad things going on? Because, for the first time, there is something that thousands of people all over the world agreed on at the same time. CoS got our attention, and the more we have learned about it, the more disgusted and angry we felt. It isn't something local, and it's hardly ever in the news, but it is a global menace.

    7) There is no way they could get away with it. Oh, please, grow up. They get away with it because up to now, only a handful of people have been complaining. Now there is a chorus of voices shouting out about the crimes of the CoS. They have gotten away with it because of public apathy, and because they lie about everything. Everything.

    8 ) Who cares about what scientology does to their own members? If you were aware of what the CoS has done, is doing, and will continue to do, to its members, you would care. Private prisons, government infiltration, fraud, and a host of human rights abuses. There are hundreds of stories about what the criminal syndicate of the CoS has done to their people. Some of them are many years old, even from the infancy of the internet. If the stories of ex-members were fabricated, why go to so much trouble for so long?

    Who would care about you, if you were victimized? Your family? Your friends? They would want to rescue you. How would they do that? By telling your story and trying to get other people involved. There now. You just described the network that exists to help people get out of scientology and help the ones still trapped inside.
  10. Anonymous9999 Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Academics are only corruptible in very specific ways.

    Scientologists cannot improve or destroy the academic reputation of a given scholar - at least, not so quickly or easily as they might affect other professional spheres. And such reputations are the currency of scholarly power.

    Which makes academia extremely reistant to the cult. As it should be.
  11. fluffbomb Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Generally, I find that people who use these statements are simply looking for excuses not to be involved. They are people who can't see beyond their own bank balance, people who read the tabloids and believe the print, people who immediately trust the "party line" because it's far easier than actually thinking for themselves.
    They are simply lazy and have little interest in anything unless it directly threatens them.

    I regret to say that I am surrounded by these people for the majority of the time.
    And I stick out like a sore thumb; I'm a writer, an artists, a thinker, and I recognize that I am in the wrong place surrounded by people who prefer to live in ignorance, just because it's easier.

    Having said that, I find the most convincing material to be the cults position on psychiatry, and their statement that millions of people are "sub-standard" and can be destroyed. I point out the implications of this and liken the cult to the Nazi regime and genocide.
    That is usually enough to get people sitting up and taking notice. Then I hit them with the wonderful video of Feb 10th.

    I'd guess I now have about ten close family and friends who are against the cult who had no opinion before, three of which are coming to the protest with me.

    tl;dr - All you can do is spread the information, for every ten who sit back and do bugger all, one will agree that something has to be done. And if we do that right, it leads to millions of people acting against something damaging to society.
  12. SomeOldGuy Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    Doing this in reverse order:

    I run into this crap every time I'm trying to do something useful. It's different every time, but here are some possible reasons:

    1. If they convince you and themselves that change is not possible, then they don't have to feel guilty about not trying. Either that, or they're former activists themselves and have been badly burned.
    2. If change is not necessary, then they don't need to do anything.
    3. Sometimes they're genuinely scared of what economic and political elites can do to people who annoy them (this would be called 'intelligence'), the thing to do here is to emphasize the decentralization of Anon.
    4. They may just like something associated with whatever you're fighting (in this case, perhaps Tom Cruise movies, Bart Simpson, etc) and are instinctively avoiding coming into conflict with that good feeling. This is a tough row to hoe, but can be the most rewarding - because nothing motivates like learning the truth of a betrayal.

    "You've got to start somewhere, and when you've got momentum to smack down a terrible wrong, why would you try and change everyone's mind in mid-direction, unless you just wanted to piss everyone off?"

    "About what? Being Anonymous? By the way, where did you hear that, because I'd like to go give whoever said that a piece of my mind; they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground."

    "Watch us. Also, not all of us are kids. Most of us are old enough to serve in the military, and some of us are old enough to be the parents of the younger ones.

    With what money are we going to be buying plane tickets, bombs, guns, etc? Also, that would take away from our porn-surfing time. Seriously, how many people have you known personally who have gone on killing sprees? Regardless of what the news says, it's just not that fucking common.

    "Have you ever been in or known someone who has been in an accident? Was the medical report provided then for you/your family member/friend accurate?" This can backfire if someone screwed up.

    So exactly what can you trust? If nothing, how did you ever manage to sign a lease/pay tuition for school/buy processed food/use a credit card or debit card/get a job? No, you can't trust everything, but the only way to find out whether something is trustworthy is to examine the evidence."

    "Scooter Libby. Perjury. 'nuff said" (Dick Cheney and Valerie Plame would be a better example). If they're a hard-core conservative, just mention Chappaquiddick instead. I'M NOT TRYING TO GET INTO A POLITICAL DEBATE HERE - just pointing out that people "get away" with stuff all the time. When the person you're talking to says "yeah, but he's got money and lawyers and political power," say "now you're getting the idea."

    "What a group does to its own members is a very good indication of what that group would do to EVERYONE given more political influence and power (which it's doing its damndest to get."

    "Why?" Seriously, that's all it deserves.

    "You gotta start somewhere, and the NWO, etc don't have as much media and government influence as the Co$."

    I wouldn't waste too much time on some of these, about ten minutes at a stretch is good. Try not to back them into a corner; that consideration may leave them willing to approach the subject later. The Socratic method (teaching through asking questions) is best here, because you want THEM to draw conclusions and change their mind; you can't do it for them. If you realize they've emotionally decided they're not going to do it and are just making rhetorical noise at you in order to make you go away and/or see their position as "reasonable," then change the subject. The acrimony and time wasted just isn't worth it, and maybe they'll be more receptive later (or maybe they won't, but it's not your life or problem).

    Also, some of these are also the False Compromise/Middle Ground fallacy (which really pisses me off), in which case someone gets to appear wise by denouncing both sides as extremist wrong, and unserious - and therefore they can feel entitled to sit back with a smug look and do nothing.
  13. deadacc19225 Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    A. Ripeness.[/url:3dlhic37] Scientology's crimes are current and its legal status is unique.
    B. The fact that some other organizations have committed crimes does not
    justify[/url:3dlhic37] ignoring Scientology's crimes.

    A. First off, Anonymous's behavior has nothing to do with the
    legitimacy[/url:3dlhic37] of its claims. Even if you don't like Anonymous for whatever reason, consider that police organizations regularly offer "deals" to minor criminals in exchange for testimony to convict more serious criminals.
    B. Anonymous's behavior is almost completely visible for anyone with an e-mail account to see. The Church of Scientology's behavior is hidden behind physical barriers, copyright law, and myriad front organizations. Use your eyes, then decide.

    A. That's an
    opinion[/url:3dlhic37], not an argument. The government didn't outlaw protesting after the civil rights movement, the Hippie movement, or after any union movements you want to name; those rights are still very much present and are inscribed into the founding documents of many countries and provinces.
    B. Anonymous isn't primarily a bunch of kids.
    C. Anonymous already has done stuff like that. The critics and the cops gave us rave reviews, and we're getting ready to do it some more.

    A. Where did THAT
    come from[/url:3dlhic37]?
    B. Anonymous's cause isn't furthered by violence, as any of that sort of thing would generate unwanted sympathy for the Church. However, some avowed members of the Church of Scientology have
    threatened[/url:3dlhic37] to run violent False Flag[/url:3dlhic37] ops against Anonymous.
    C. If such events were to occur, it's possible to look through Anonymous's quite public archives for any planning that would link Anon to terrorism.

    A. Indeed, the
    burden of proof[/url:3dlhic37] initially falls to the accuser. However, that burden has been met repeatedly in the past with no evidence to the contrary. Top members of the Church (including its founder's wife) have gone to jail for serious crimes.
    B. This is a
    clear[/url:3dlhic37] case of a double standard[/url:3dlhic37]. Nobody ELSE gets to claim by default that their records are false.
    C. This is also an unsubstantial
    argument[/url:3dlhic37] when stated without proof.

    A. For many examples, the public record indicates that they didn't get away with it. However, the government has previously stopped short of fully dismantling the Church; the power structure and the bases of operation never got broken up, and the crimes continue today.
    B. This perverse
    "logic"[/url:3dlhic37] is what's shielded the Church thus far.

    A. The state is supposed to have a
    monopoly on force[/url:3dlhic37]. The Church has no right to abuse its members.
    B. Leaving the Church alone sets a dangerous precedent. If nobody intervenes when the Church uses slave labor, fraud, and operates criminal
    racketeering[/url:3dlhic37], why are the laws on the book at all?

    A. lol wut?
    B. Colloquially, something's "insanity" has two components. First, the agent in question has to break societal norms in some significant way. It's questionable whether Anonymous really does this, but only hindsight will resolve this question. Second, the agent has to become an irrational danger to themselves or others. Anonymous and its members present a very focused threat to the criminal leadership of the Church of Scientology, nothing else.
    C. "Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation and social standing, never can bring about a reform. Those who are really in earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathy with despised and persecuted ideas and their advocates, and bear the consequences." -Susan B. Anthony

    A. If you're accepting that these groups have committed crimes against humanity on a scale with David Miscavige's abuse of the Scientologists, then how dare you sit in your armchair and bitch at people fighting against them? These groups aren't lined up in neat, orderly rows on a field somewhere; each and every one of them has developed their own niche and
    modus operandi[/url:3dlhic37] that require unique attention. They all exploit people, often bearing the banners of enlightenment and justice. If they are acting to break down the principles of government or living that you believe in, it is your responsibility to oppose them, armed with those very principles.
    B. The movement is attacking David Miscavige's Mafia here and now. The movement is learning how to fight for the rights of others even as it seeks to encourage the authorities into upholding social justice. Who can say what new insights, what new changes a morning without Miscavige might bring?
  14. Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    I'm not going to answer all of them, but I feel like there was a REALLY good answer to this question.
    Or rather, to the question of "But Christianity is just as bad! The Crusades and Inquisition... blahblahblah".

    This thread:

    links to this other forum, where page 16 of the discussion has the answer. ... -video/300

  15. Evil Zoe Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    I have been REPEATEDLY beating my head up against this brick wall with some of my more 'intelligent' longtime friends, and I can't seem to get them past the 4chan aspect of this surge in the movement.

    They think that only assholes would join Anonymous because there are 4channers involved. As if people who enjoyed playing on 4chan or its ilk couldn't also find importance in such causes as this one.

    They're throwing the damned baby out with the bathwater.

    This has been the bane of my existence these past couple of days.

    Well that, and the fact that I've developed a severe allergy to the tree blooming outside my front door and it's KILLING

    But IGNORANT people piss me off, dammit. :D
  16. Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    1. Why Scientology when there is *Insert X*.
    This does not excuse Scientology from its crimes.

    2. Anonymous is just as fanatical as Scientology,
    No its not. Also, this does not excuse Scientology from its crimes.

    3. Crazy kids you can't do stuff like that anymore!
    A) Were not only kids
    B) Yes we can

    4. Anonymous is going to go on killing sprees or blow up buildings.
    Strawman fallacy. You made up a random *imaginary* situation and then you attacked it. Still does not excuse Scientology from its crimes.

    5. The Medical reports can be fake. (So I won't look at them)
    Explain why they "can be fake" please.

    6. The FBI reports can be fake. (So I won't look at them)
    Oh really? Freedom of Information Act

    7. There is no way they could get away with *Insert* so it must be false.
    Bin Laden got away with blowing up the Twin Towers. Is that false?

    8. Who cares what Scientology does to their own members?
    Wow, what a fine upstanding member of society you are! This still does not excuse Scientology from its crimes.

    9. You're insane if you support them.
    Why are we insane? Are you a psychologist to deem this? This still does not excuse Scientology from its crimes.

    10. They are exactly like *Insert Crazy Group* (Ex: New World Order groups, etc)
    This does not excuse Scientology from its crimes.
  17. number 6 Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    1) Why Scientology when there is X?

    Just because X group does this doesn't excuse what the CoS does. If anything, it's worse when the CoS commits said acts because it is supposedly a religion. What religion commits said acts?

    2) Anonymous is just as fanatical as Scientology

    Just because we care, just because we speak up does not make us fanatics.

    3) Crazy kids you can't do this stuff anymore!

    Don't tell us what to do. And a lot of us are not just young adults, you know.

    4) Anonymous is going to go on killing sprees or blow up buildings

    And where did you get that idea from? Again, just because we actually care about what the CoS has done and is still doing does not make us like Al Qaeda. That talking point is propaganda pushed by the CoS.

    5) The medical reports could be fake.

    And I just saw a flying piggy in the sky just now.

    6) The FBI reports could be fake.

    So you think all the information out there about the CoS' illegal activities are a huge conspiracy against them? Frankly, I don't know how to respond to that.

    7) There is no way they could get away with _________ so it must be false.

    Justice is not always swift. The mafia got away with murder and racketeering for so long.

    8) Who cares what Scientology does to its own members?

    What they do is morally and legally wrong. For example, disconnecting family members from each other, sending members to a prison camp etc.

    9) You are insane to support them.

    How so? Nothing anonymous is doing is illegal. Anonymous is past the internet pranking phase, and it's a serious movement.

    10) They are exactly like _________

    That still does not excuse the CoS' crimes.

    I'll add one:

    11) You're just bigots. You're just as bad as Islamophobes. You're a Scientology-o-phobe (I can see this insult coming).

    The CoS tries to be all things at once. It wants to be a self-help organization, a corporation, and a religion. It can't have it all three ways.
  18. Anonemoss Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    X ) Why does anon only recruit, and not seek full scale alliances?

    This is going to be a painful question imo
  19. anonymous3347 Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    But Anonymous doesn't recruit. We invite. There is a difference.
    We put up posters and hand out flyers, talk to people, and spread our presence throughout the internet in a manner that might look like recruiting. But Anonymous has no membership conditions; no One Truth to spread, because there are many different viewpoints; and doesn't care if you participate or not, even though the more the merrier. We don't pursue anyone, we require nothing.

    As for seeking alliances, Anonymous is composed of thousands of alliances. Anonymous is legion. Who would dictate the terms of the alliance? Anonymous is no one's personal army, and thus is not good at taking orders. What would the ally get out of the alliance? Anonymous is a creative creature, forged from the merger of the good, the bad, and the ugly; no ally would be insane enough to trust our unpredictablility.

    We're walking together in one direction. Individuals and groups may join the parade if they wish, then peel off when they are finished. Ten more will walk up to take their place. That's my answer to your question.
  20. ANON E MOOSE Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    This needs a sticky imho.

    One that i find has come up is from armchair pragmatist buddies of mine is, how are Scientology's actions any different from the actions of other churches previously. Like the crusades.


    If catholicism started today, do you think we would let them get away with the Spanish inquisition? Stoning people to death for planting different crops side by side. Fuck no. Its scientology's tough luck that the started up in an age of reason and in a world where even a small sliver of people are capable and willing to speak out against them.
  21. noitulover Member

    Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    and . . . maybe direct them to the Professions thread of Anonymous --

    if anything speaks to the incredible diversity of this group, it's the occupations/past-times/interests that we're all involved in -- every walk of life, every colour of the rainbow, all 32 flavours of ice cream! and cake too!
  22. Re: Trying to convince Brick walls.(The usual anti-Anon excuses)

    1. Why Scientology when there is *Insert X*.

    This is something we might be able to fix. It's not often that there is a problem that is too large for any one person to tackle, that can be solved by a small group during our lifetimes. We can actually have a visible and measurable impact on the lives of thier victims, and help stop them now. If we ignore this opportunity it might not come again.

    2. Anonymous is just as fanatical as Scientology,

    It's probably because I present Anonymous in a backwards fashion, but I don't tend to get this response. I start with the idea that Anonymous was just a truly obnoxious group of internet pranksters. When the CO$ started pulling the leaked video it caught their attention. They thought there might be something amusing behind it. However, as soon anyone starts asking questions or looking for answers about CO$ it's impossible to find them funny. Through the word of mouth from this original group it quickly built up (less than three weeks) to a multinational protest in more than 100 cities and more than 9000 people. Longtime critics, ex-scientologists, and people who looked at the information available in the news articles and court cases recognized the problem and responded.

    (hopefully I'm not insulting the longtime Anonymous with this description, but it's what I think actually happened)

    7. There is no way they could get away with *Insert* so it must be false.

    That's exactly why they do get away with so much. Their crimes easy to dismiss as hyperbole and rumour when you do hear about it. Despite the fact that there are so many well documented court cases, newspaper stories, and documentaries; people don't look for the information because they've already dismissed it as impossible. These are the things that are proven fact, despite the documented efforts that COS has tried to hide it. They'd never get away with it if it weren't so unbelievable.

    8. Who cares what Scientology does to their own members?

    It's not just their members.They believe that they are morally correct to do anything they can to destroy the lives of anyone who doesn't speak of the COS in positive terms. This includes injuring and killing them, trying to get people fired, and framing them for crimes that they didn't do. By the time members are far enough in the organization to be doing these things, they have already been severely damaged by the church and it's 'religious' practises. Most COS members aren't the type of people who would do these things when they start.

    Members of the COS aren't even the only people who practise this 'religion', but since the 'church' has copywritten the name of the religion, they persecute and sue anyone who attempts to practise outside of the COS for copywrite violation.

    9. You're insane if you support them.

    Even if I'm only one more body in the crowd, I would be ashamed to ignore this issue. The only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to them. I recognize the risks involved. I will limit the risks as well as I can. I am not a brave person, but I will not let myself be such a coward as to ignore this danger.

    10. They are exactly like *Insert Crazy Group* (Ex: New World Order groups, etc)

    Right now we have the opportunity to do something about this. We've managed a multnational peaceful protest with. The only arrest was a COS member who spit on, kicked, and then stole sunglasses off the face of a protester. Losing this momentum would be unforgivable. I don't know about (ex: new world order groups, etc). I'm too busy worrying about the damage that COS is doing to our community to worry much about theology. I'm not really interested in any religion.

    I've noticed that my answers are often very different from the groups. Although the answers already here are very true, they don't always address the parts of this that I respond to. I'm probably going to keep answering question that have already been answered, for just that reason. It may not be much help since I actually measurable odd, but at least having different arguments probably doesn't hurt.

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