UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

Discussion in 'Leaks & Legal' started by Plups, Jun 17, 2008.

  1. Plups Member

    UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    On 29 May, I sent this email to the UK Crown Prosecution Service:

    Today I received this response:

    My response:
  2. mojo Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    dear CPS
    kindly inform the asshat constabulary of scotland.
    yours anonymously

    good letter Plups
  3. anonymoose Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    You're just going to get the same reply, ie "It's not the signs themselves, it's the context in which they are displayed".
  4. shadowchaser Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Using Glasgow or Edinburgh as examples are not good. The CPS has no jurisdiction over what happens in Scotland. It's the Crown Office in Scotland who decide whether to prosecute or not. The machinery of Scottish Criminal Law is completely separate from that of England & Wales. Except at the highest point of Appeal, I think, the House of Lords.
  5. Plups Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Probably. Still, their letter includes examples of what they consider to be breaches of s5 of the Act and those examples and whatever explanation the CPS gave the police would be very useful guidance, even if not binding. This is so particularly (thanks for the audio, John Carmichael) because I suspect that the police are WAY off target if they are interpreting "insulting" in its ordinary sense (the Church is complaining that they're offended, therefore your sign is insulting).

    The Director of Public Prosecutions gave a speech at Birmingham University on 4 March 2008 in which he/she said:

    CPS News : Free Expression and the Rule of Law

    I suspect that the CPS advice on what constitutes an offence is a LONG way from how the police are using s5, and so it would be very helpful if the CPS were to state its view publicly.
  6. Ten Tigers Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Good job, Plups. I'm not in the UK, and have no familiarity with the legal system there, but this law seems quite ambiguous and left far too open to individual tastes and interpretation.
  7. Plups Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    It's the same Act in force across the both jurisdictions, isn't it? I figure the examples make the point that the confusion is widespread. Confusion knows no national borders - if it's happening in Scotland it may happen just as easily in England/Wales. So, I argue, it's worth the CPS clarifying the issues.
  8. shadowchaser Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Pointing out what is happening in Scotland to the CPS is pointless, they have no bearing on what happens there, even though they are both using the same law. However pointing out to the Crown Office what had happend in England with regard to ENG may be of use, though that is not to say they wouldn't ignore it out of hand.
  9. monamia Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    You are a class act, Plups. Keep it up.
    All this is evidence of waffling.

    Perhaps copies of these at some point to
    one of the better papers. At any rate, you know
    what you are doing.

    It IS worth clarifying.

    Thanks from your steadfast admirer.
  10. anonymitts2 Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Birmingham sorted out the use of the word "cult" and there were signs a'plenty. In fact, the fabled "massive police presence" at Brum was 2 PCSOs. One cool dude and one quite hot chick :)

    If you want to see the letter that I got back from the CPS, it's here:

    ImageShack - Hosting :: cpsletterfs5.jpg
  11. mojo Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    the crown office - Crown Office

    You can contact us by e-mail


    Crown Office
    25 Chambers Street
    EH1 1LA

    Telephone: 0131 226 2626
    Fax: 0844 561 4069
  12. musketeerwang Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    The "cult" issue is sorted. The recent arrest was for "cu*t" written in the dual-meaning context of "cunt". Which is offensive. It was a fair cop IMO, EXCEPT (crucially) that no warning was given prior to arrest. And, you know, they didn't actually HAVE to be as humourless as to do that over what amounted to a joke.
  13. Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    That wasn't a fair cop at all as the sign wasn't vulgar at all.
    You had to use your imagination as to what letter is missing in C-U-*-T.
    So I'd be completely shocked if the charges weren't soon dropped on that one too.
    And if they aren't, even the worst attorney in the world could probably prove him innocent.

    Oh and this was from London on Sat:
    Original: Anon vs Co$ - 14.06.08 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
  14. Ten Tigers Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

  15. Gnosis Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Would it be okay to put on a poster the dictionary definition of the word "cult", just in case anyone has a misunderstood, especially the Scilons, who seem to refuse to understand that word in relation to their operations.

  16. vegnej Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    This stems from the fact that this flim flam state doesn't have a written constitution. This allows any interpretation depending on the flavour of the year to be used, if we had such a thing there would be less debacle of this type which is happening at the moment, but thats another battle for the future !!
  17. musketeerwang Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    It doesn't make any difference - it was clear what was meant - one of them read "Greedy cu*t" for example, with a pic of Miscavige. It's overtly abusive, which is something that our bullshit laws are written to prevent. The arrest (especially without warning) was way out of line though.

    I wasn't talking about how the courts would view it, just that the cop's interpretation of the law was reasonable - up to the point at which he made an arrest rather than just asking the guy to take his sign down.

    Yes, I saw that in person. Qualitatively little different I agree - but the lack of a swearword or unsubtly censored swearword would probably avoid trouble (and did, it seems).

    What you have to realise is that coppers can arrest protesters here for ANY reason. It doesn't even HAVE to be soundly based in law, because the public order act and the catch-all "breach of the peace" (Scots Law) offences give unlimited latitude to the police. They don't give a rat's ass if the charges don't stick, they're just exerting their control over a situation on the ground.

    "Cult" was worth fighting because it's true, and objectively shouldn't cause offence to a reasonable person. Most importantly the intent is not to offend, and this can be shown easily (which is likely the main reason why the CPS dropped it). Calling the head and founder of their "church" cunts is clearly offensive, and clearly intended to offend. There's a crucial difference.

    The CPS has no jurisdiction in Scotland. If our authorities decide he intended to cause offence, he could well be boned. Equally there's a good chance they'll see it as well-intentioned satire and drop the charges. But it's not the open and shut case that ENG was.
  18. Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    ^ I concur. Its ridiculous, buuut you can see where their logic is coming from. Its absurd to arrest without warning, but cu*t is obviously going to be interpreted as cunt by anyone not familiar with the ENG stuff or Scifaggery. The police probs just didnt think about it and figured much better to end that quickly. "what a bunch of cults" is boh fine and funny. It is obvious what its implying, yet it isnt overt.
  19. Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Another concur here. Before I'd gotton involved with Anonymous, I wouldn't have read the sign as "Cult".
  20. Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Yup - I mean it was funny, but dont be acting all uber surprised it ended with v&ing

    It was retarded not to be warned first, but nonetheless... Kinda predictable. Shame cos its pretty lulzy
  21. Anonyneko Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Dear CPS:


    William Wallace would have fought Scientology. So should you.
  22. ScudMuffin Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    Context would be peaceful public protest with a view to informing the public of an opinion.
  23. Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    See reply #72 in the thread "Scifag in London PD Command???" in this Leaks Forum. This gives info on Bob Keenan of the "L Ron Hubbard Foundation" who is the scifag behind Hurley. Includes Keenan's mobile phone number! It is not the "Church" that will give us hell for using the C word. It is this guy. Let's take the generalities out of this and focus on the specific targets to deal with.
  24. scrumpmonkey Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    someone REALY needs to calrify this to the police, "the public order act" and the "incitement of religious hatrerated" act both need to be clarified, i know each case is differnet buy someone needs to tell Greater Manchester Police that they can't take our fucking signs constantly, its against out rights to protest. i STLL occasionaly hear about people being intimidated by the police for using the 'big C'.
    the incement act is just thought control, if we step things up the Co$ might start trying to nail us with it.
  25. Major Boyle Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    They don't need to be clarified, they need to be scrapped. What is it with the left wing tyrants that they think they should enact laws that are designed to prevent people's feelings from being hurt?

    If I bawww about $cientology hurting my feelings, should THEY be shut up? Uk needs a real Bill of Rights, yesterday. Including free speech.
  26. Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    We are subject to the EU bill of rights, which is written. You just need to get the judge to accept EU over UK (not saying thats difficult, but you would need to make your case)
  27. auchraw Member

    Re: UK Use of "Cult" - CPS Responds

    In Edinburgh once during the Festivals a peaceful group of laid-back citizens was enjoying a charming pavement concert given by three or four music students playing period instruments, when a very large policeman came along and told them in no uncertain terms to pack up. There had been complaints, he said. No-one is complaining, I said, greatly daring. He fixed me with a dangerous eye, tapped his chest at about the level of my nose, and said, I AM. In other words the police in Edinburgh make their own contexts.

    Being friendly to the police certainly helps. And be very careful about where and how you demonstrate. They are probably bombarded with complaints from the local Scifags, about harrassment, offensive this and illegal that and have to take this srsly. Someone somewhere will sooner or later pass the word down that arresting Anons is a waste of court time.

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