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Using Market Forces vs NSA

Discussion in 'Think Tank' started by Andy Downs, Jan 15, 2014.

  1. Andy Downs Member

    While reading this article about NSA re-routing new computers, smartphones etc to implant spyware and other tracking devices, I had an idea.

    The NSA is not going to give up all their toys because of a Review Group Obama set up.

    So what leverage do we have to force change?

    The Day We Fight Back is a good start...but I doubt it will go far enough.
    The one that that can change Washington is money. Now there is no way we all can come up with enough money to buy Congress like the big corporations.

    What we do have is access to the money the corporations use to buy Congress.

    This NSA story about re directing new computer devices is perfect.

    The story implies that only devices headed outside the US get the NSA special package shipping. So if we got everyone who has bought a new device over the last year to start calling

    Amazon
    Apple
    Dell
    HP
    Gateway
    etc etc

    and ask for money back and how to return the device because of the NSA program....it would get their attention. Once you have their attention, they do the work for us.
    Thoughts?
    • Like Like x 3
  2. I think that's a good idea... Maybe setup a few social media sites to get the idea around?
    • Like Like x 1
  3. tinfoilhatter Member

    Actually, this could be the ground for a class action lawsuit. Why, because the NSA spyware is not something you were paying for. It probably affects device performance, and it is taking up memory on your device.It can be argued that you are not getting what you pay for, and are not getting the security and privacy you were paying for.

    the beautiful part of it all, is that these lawsuits do not have to be in the united states either. These are international companies. So if there was a huge EU lawsuit, over this, the companies would DEMAND the program be shut down and people responsible be crucified.

    on a different note:

    I wonder if there is any mention of it in the end user agreements for the devices? This may null THE COMPANIES END of the EULA. That is a whole other can of worms right there.
    • Like Like x 4
  4. X_L33t Member

    I wonder if it would be possible to acquire a list of all the devices, makes, and model numbers with this "undocumented feature" installed? Then such a list could be pasted all over the webs. "If you own [device], your privacy is compromised before you even load your OS. Please contact manufacturer." >;-)
    • Like Like x 2
  5. X_L33t Member

    • Like Like x 1
  6. Andy Downs Member

    I know a serious firm who does that type of work. I could get a meeting set. The do nothing but live in federal courts. They win, and they are connected....you have to have someone like that to take this on....or you will loose.

    I know how the justice system works and does not. If the right guy isn;t representing you before the court, you will go down,, no matter what the aw states.

    I can get that put together very soon
    • Like Like x 4
  7. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  8. Andy Downs Member

    Another interesting issue that may apply legally to this is the US Govt's lawsuit against Sprint for $21million because the NSA claims their spying fees are too high.
    There is a distinct difference in having to turn over files because of a National Security Letter or Warrant versus being paid to turn that data over.
    Since it is now clear, in a legal sense, that the tech companies get paid to turn this data over....that could be a big deal in court showing a quid pro quo
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57619850-94/us-sues-sprint-for-allegedly-overcharging-on-wiretaps/
    • Like Like x 3
  9. tinfoilhatter Member

    What about honest services fraud? We are in a huge deficit, how do we know that this "spying fee" is being properly spent and isn't wasting our money? If they can not verify that they are getting their money's worth out of the program, which the above lawsuit insinuates, then they are guilty of wasting our funds, which IS honest services fraud.
  10. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    The government, thru NSA, didn't give them a choice. NSA kept this plan from Congress, Congress holds the purse strings.. Our government needs to be financially intelligent. NSA's overreach costs money. The government must reign in overreach and those expenses. The cost of overreach is one of the things that will make the government reign in programs that are inconsistent with the Constitution. Most of Andy's initiatives are about things inconsistent with out Constitution. Or maybe all of Andy's initiatives.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Andy Downs Member

    Well that argument will be used in court by the NSA by going after Sprint. It is interesting, and has the chance to be exploited for the greater good. Just not sure how yet.
    There was a documentary (pre-Snowden) with Gen Michael Hayden. He said something to the effect that he as head of the NSA did not know the full extent or how many contractors were actually out there. If I could remember what documentary that was from, it would be a great soundbite to use in a video to discredit them.
  12. Andy Downs Member

    You are absolutely correct the NSA didn't give any of the tech companies a choice in turning over data.
    The interesting part to me, solely on a legal basis, is that it was structured as two transactions.
    1. Tech company turn over data
    2. NSA will pay you to turn over data.

    That implies a quid pro quo. On another thread we talked about a class action suit. That is a possible issue to exploit in court.
    In other words, ok tech company ABC, you said you were compelled to turn our data over, yet you bill for the service.....
    If this was a Mafia case, they would all be in jail.

    It really is a Mafia case, it just so happens the Mob have badges now.

    A class action case would force the NSA to spend a great deal out of their budget. That is less for spying on us.
    There has to be other ways to make the NSA have to put more effort, time, and therefore money to achieve the same results...
    I just don;t know what that is yet.

    Another benefit to a civil class action is since the Supreme Court has yet announced again that they will not hear the case against the NSA
    https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline
    having a financial judgement that could be used to campaign against the NSA would be funny. Take their money and use it to install representatives like Wyden and Udall etc.
    But then we become what we hate as well
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Class action suits are legal. US spying on it's citizens is not.
    • Like Like x 2
  14. tinfoilhatter Member


    It does not have to be a US based lawsuit. The supreme court may say "Sovereign Immunity" and tell everyone to eat a dick and choke on it. HOWEVER, if say non-us lawsuits were to occur, then the program would be terminated due to fear that it was destroying our economic power.

    the fact of the matter, is that the NSA should have terminated the program the moment it was exposed. The fact that they did not is sloppy and dangerous.
  15. Andy Downs Member

    Quid Pro Quo legal issue
    I was talking to a buddy of mine who is a lawyer today. The Quid Pro Quo issue where NSA pays Sprint could be negated by the fact that lawyers subpoena expert witnesses and more often than not pay them.
    This may not apply in this case depending on who the agreement was written. Perhaps via discovery we will find out what the agreements were and be able to exploit.

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