Western Misconceptions Meet Iranian Reality

Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Unregistered, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. Videos of demonstrations around the world!!
    I dont want to be brave when i my self dont risk my life.
    But remember that fear is there most powerfull wepon.

    My beautiful sisters and brothers Be Strong Be Free...
  2. dr3k-IRAN Member

    This analysis is correct in many ways. However it omits the fact that most polls are censored in Iran and that any government criticism is censored or inhibited. To that end, while many people in outer precincts in Iran may have said they like Achmadinijad they certainly may not have been vocal about it.

    A recent NSA/CIA study of Iran suggested in 2003 [that I cannot remember where to find] suggested that while censorship plays a large role in "cults of personality" and places like Iran where the government is not allowed to be criticized bar torture; there is often safety in numbers and when a large uprising begins against a political figure who uses repression of dissent the result is typically larger than expected. Look at the pictures of protests in Iran, do those people ALL look like college kids? I see old women, I see heavily conservative Muslim women, I see old people.
  3. I dont want to be brave when i my self dont risk my life.
    But remember that fear is there most powerfull wepon.

    My beautiful sisters and brothers Be Strong Be Free...[/QUOTE]

  4. Maybe what we really need is the Republic of Tehran...
  5. Liberalism is like a virus. When a few have it, others will want it, and it spreads like wildfire. The article makes some cogent points, but you can't stop people from freeing themselves. I doubt this possible revolution will take them all the way to the ultimate conclusion, but it's going to take a step closer. People will remember this, and they will remember what the Supreme Leader says -- and they will tell their kids. It will spread. And it will bite the Islamic Republic in the ass; if not today, then tomorrow.
  6. wsss Member

    I agree.

    I hope this bring about real change. I do believe the Iranian people want to be free and a bit more progressive as a society.
  7. KOSS56 Member

    the time is close to come

    I've been living in Isfahan for two years in the past and it's not easy to explain Iran situation abroad.

    I just want to say :
    there I knew a lot of nice good friends, first taken to jail, then taken to war and later working hard for their own life.
    I just hope that THEIR time is close to come.

    I keep your memories, my pharsi friends ! do not give up !
  8. my respect

    bingo, finlly i just find some budy can read and not just somebody with a highly developed ability to reason and understand, especially iranian .
    Microsoft Encarta Winkler Prins Encyclopedie 2007. 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation/Het Spectrum. Alle rechten voorbehouden.
  9. The OP sez:

    Well, this can go one of two ways. Obviously, the US is rooted in revolution, and while I won't make an argument that this is some kind of case study in how to make an awesome country, I will go ahead and say that while it can work, sometimes it just fails. Epically.

    Popular revolutions that kind of sucked:
    The one that established the Soviet Union.
    The one that established Iran.
    The one that installed the Taliban into power in Afghanistan.
    The one that happened in Cuba (although things are getting better today).

    So lets not make generalized statements about how open revolt is always a good idea. There were sentiments in early America, too, about trading "one tyrant one thousand miles away for one thousand tyrants one mile away." You will never have 100% support, and people need to recognise this.

    Also, people need to recognise that massively popular protest does not necessarly indicate majority. In the United States, there are massive protests in favor of gay marraige, however despite this, the voting population was unable to muster a majority opposition to a ban on gay marraige in the midst of what is arguably the most liberal region of America.

    As far as the violent reaction to the demonstrations. I'm going to go ahead and play devils advocate here for at least some of this, because I've had some riot control training.

    Regardless of what people say, "non-violent" demonstrations of this magnitude can and often do feature very, very violent reactions by the mob. If participating in a nonviolent demonstration, and your path is blocked by a line of police officers, it is extremely likely that the protestors will physically attack the line (although usually utilizing non-lethal methods). There is often vandalism associated with these large, *extremely* emotional crowds, and without a proportional (PROPORTIONAL) response to check the naturally violent tendencies that emotional people have, it is very easy for fearful soldiers or police to employ become scared and employ lethal countermeasures to disperse the crowd.

    The problem here is that a lack of riot control training and proper equipment (ie teargas, etc) have resulted in a total loss of control. Look me in the eye and tell me right now that if a military blockade, with orders to stop the crowd from closing within 1km of a government facility essential to continuity of government, was overrun, that nobody in that crowd would even consider picking up a fallen weapon or beating a seperated soldier within an inch of his life.

    Because the Iranian government is not prepared to handle what is quickly becoming an open riot, we find that soldiers are panicking and firing into the crowd. The same, exact shit happened in the United States at Kent State University. This particular issue is not one of Iranian oppression, it is a training and logistical issue, and while it's still the Iranian government's fault, it's their fault for a totally different reason than most people are talking about.

    That being said, it is still completely unethical to block open, civil communications systems from the civil populace and attacks on government IT infrastructure are ethical given that it is a proportional response to government attacks on civil IT infrastructure.
  10. Also, I just want to say that US election results are generally announced mere minutes after the polls close. Since I'm in the military, and I know that there is no way my absentee ballot could possibly have been counted, should I then assume Obama was elected illegitimately?
  11. Dear Mr. Friedman,

    You absolutely lost me with this paragraph.

    A. You seem to be implying that Ahmadinejad is the one who cheated, all by his lonesome self. Common "western" wisdom puts Khamenai and the Revolutionary guard as the perpetrators.
    So you say that "Doing so would have required the involvement of an incredible number of people" as if that proves that it didn't happen.
    The media blackout and hasty results seems to suggest that a lot of people WERE involved.

    B. You say that Ahmadinejad's many enemies would have spotted such a fraud - I would submit that the Iranians in the street did exactly that.

    C. Some of the numbers released actually DON'T jibe with sentiment in some precincts.

    D. You say it is hard to see the mechanics of this. You hide this in your last sentence of the paragraph, even though it's the linchpin of your entire argument - that it could not be done.

    Well, we can ALL see the mechanics of this. They're simple. They're brutal. And they're hiding in plain sight. There's no secret to it - the election is rigged. Always was.
    Except this time the numbers were so wrong there was no longer any doubt in anyone's mind.

    The 66% Ahmadinejad win (as opposed to a 53% win which would have been easier to swallow) was code language for "there is not going to be a second round. Ahmadi's our guy. Now shut up and go home".

    I don't need to be Iranian to recognize truth when it smacks me in the nose.
    I got eyes and I got brains.
  12. Here in the US, they're projected based on past polls, and exit-voting polls. They can be wrong. Gore vs Bush they said Gore won Florida... then re-nigged, and said too close to call... then said Bush... then said too close to call.

    Now some precincts are OBVIOUSLY for one side or the other... and computerized voting, etc. In any close election as a whole, you're not going to have all the votes in 2 hours after the first voting booths close, sorry. And Iran doesn't have computerized voting... they have pieces of paper dropped in a tupperware box.

    It's suspicious, and I'm sure he would have lost anyway... but it's a really BAD way to try and flex your muscles as being macho by saying you won 66% of the vote when polls before indicated a much closer race... AND to claim all the votes have been pretty much counted far far too soon.

    That's why people are ticked.
  13. CIA and British coup in Iran 1953: Three Parts
    by Amy Goodman winner of Alternative Nobel Price!

    Part 1:

    Part 2:
    [ame=]YouTube - Democracy Now: Iran 1953 Part 2[/ame]

    Part 3:
    [ame=]YouTube - Democracy Now: Iran 1953 Part 3[/ame]

    Compare with this:
    [ame=]YouTube - CIA, Iran and the Election Riots - June 14, 2009[/ame]
  14. Democracy?

    Democracy was never meant for everyone - thank god we are all different.

    Sadly though the US of A wants everyone to be and think as they do -- BLERK!!

    This is something the people of Iran can do on their own - they dont need the US jumping in and destroying the incredible fabric of life - like Iraq!

    Dont see the people of the US standing up for their rights - they bend over and kiss their ass - and that of whoevers instructing them.

    Get out US! The people of Iran, I imagine, appreciate the cheers of support, they are a much stronger powerful people than those in the US. And will succeed!

    Much love from New Zealand, Iranians.
  15. As a westerner from the US, I don't pretend to understand what the "real" Iranian people want, or what they are like. What I do understand is them feeling as if their government isn't hearing the voice of the people, and isn't taking their votes seriously. It's a feeling of powerlessness, and I truly feel for them. I pray that theyare successful in their revolt, and regardless of race, religon or political view, am behind them, as a fellow human being. God bless them.
  16. PersiaBeFree Member

    Good piece.

    But primitive falsehoods are no less false for being popular among the primitive.

    At some point, a culture's thinkers need to lead it toward the truth.

    An Iranian Enlightenment is due. Let it not be discouraged.
  17. anon123-IRAN Member

    The one great thing that has come out of all this is the west finally seeing how liberal and passionate and compassionate the iranian people are. We as a people have struggled for democrazy for nearly a 100 years. THe enlightenment has simply been surpressed by those in power and has been there all along.
  18. PersiaBeFree Member


    To clarify, I'm speaking of the moment in the West (1700s--called The Enlightenment) when that supression was actually thrown off.

    Time to act!
  19. Yay, another election decided by the uneducated, retardedly religious, rural vote!

    How cosmopolitan!

    Universal Suffrage is bullshit if you ask me, Reading/Writing should be a BASIC requirement to be able to vote. [In ALL countries!] If your so uneducated to be outside the grasp of wreading or writing your opinion should not be recognized...

    In the US the dipshit vote has DirecTV and watches Fox News that tells them what to think, and what day it is, so they know when to vote...
    In Iran they just set up a thousand foot poster of the local Imam jerking off Mr. "Member's Only" jacket with a bunch of flashing lights around it...

    See, were not so different....

    The Nuclear program that is so damn important to them? Its claim is for "progress" and "development"?

    They decry western values and excess, but then seek "progress" on the other hand. Why, so you can just wind up like we are?

    Progress just gets you a a farsi language FOX, and an obese population....

    Is that REALLY what you want?

    Wish I could help y'all BURN THAT MF DOWN!
  20. I realize it's a waste of time to respond to an unregistered but...

    Agree with the second part. Democracy is for those who choose it. Of course that's almost requires democracy for the choice.

    How can you assure you're wrong? Speak in blanket statements. Good example.

    I just woke up. Have we invaded Iran!??! Whoa! But what about the incredible fabric said that already.

    Have you been to the US? We protest everything. Abortion, War, illegal status of weed, anything God related, construction, etc.

    That speaks for itself. Are you high?

    Ah! That explains it.
  21. you do not have any thing to do ?

    you are just bunch of fuking jobless merican, stop talking abouth others. shut up and please let iranian solve their problems bij themselves.
  22. I have a job but I AM American.
    How am I preventing Iranians from "solving problems by themselves"?
  23. I'll admit up front that I haven't read all of the postings since I don't have the time, but, out of my own curiosity, I showed some of the postings in this thread to some Iranian friends at my university. Regarding the post:

    "It's just different in Iran. Choices are often made for you, and it's difficult to create an analogy you could understand. The best I could say is imagine growing up in a society where you were engaged to marry before you could walk, your occupation is pretty much whatever your father is doing, and all you really have to look forward to is a place in Heaven. You're so religious that those who live in the city and study knowledge you might consider blasphemous, such as the suggestion that Allah did not create the world and that man can manipulate Allah's creation."

    My friends thought that this comment was quite humorous. "It's obvious that this person has never been to Iran nor does he/she know any Iranians" was their reply. They felt that this comment is perhaps more misguided than the comments this person was trying to counter. Their primary point: they do not have any illusions. They understand that, even with the reformists in power, it's likely that little will change. Of course they are hoping for reforms, but they believe that this will probably take time. To say that the protesters are wasting their energy, however, is flawed logic. In fact, from what they have heard from people within Iran, the protests have moved beyond the wealthy, elite, and educated, into the middle and lower classes, implying that the article leading this thread is also based upon flawed logic.

    It is this very reason (that the protest is moving to the middle and lower classes) that the government (Supreme Leader and Guidance Council) are cracking down on the protests; they realize that, should the protests spread to other classes (as it appears to be), they may no longer have a hold on power. This is not about "preserving a pure Islamic State" any longer. It's about holding onto the power that they have, and this can only be done by limiting freedoms and, should the protests continue, force. How anyone can defend this government is beyond me. As my Iranian friends pointed out, no one, regardless of class, wishes to live under repressive rule. This isn't a "class" or "cultural" issue, it's a human rights issue. The desire for these basic freedoms is universal.
  24. Well, my apologies for seeming to speak a blanket sentiment for a great number of Iranians. To be more clear, my analysis applies to the poorer, rural peoples who do not have the benefit of being able to look over a shoulder at a computer screen, chuckle, and deliver a witty rebuttal in English over a forum.

    They do not have any illusions, true. Even in -this- country, however, you have a population of ignorant people who are ruled by and base decisions on obscure biblical passages. My belief is that this problem exists in Iran, except to a much greater degree. While the entire population is surely not stupid, I argue that a lack of education does afflict the majority of Iranian citizens.

    Which makes the "impossibility" that they are dumb enough to have voted for the incumbent, even in the opposition home region, less of an impossibility.
  25. rouge

    this guy is a giant fearmonger... take a look at his recent writings. Its fucking laughable that this guy still writes.

    OpEdNews OpEdNews Author's Page for Paul Craig Roberts
  26. troyamot1 Member

    So much is going back and forth on things that doesn't help anyone.
    gOOD LUCK.
  27. Geraldanthro Member

    STRATFOR, is using old paradigms, developes inaccurate assessment of threat.

    While throw weight and penetration, even delivery
    were the main concerns of the old paradigm.

    The new paradigm is more concerned with
    a single nuke.

    By a non-state terror group of a rogue state.
    Delivery can be accomplished with a fishing
    trawler or in a cargo vessels.

    The inability of Iran or N. Korea to miniaturize
    the components for a missile delivery system
    is of little comfort.

    MAD or mutually assured destruction is no
    deterrent with a non-state terrorist group,
    or a supreme leader that may have dementia,
    or a religious desire to press the button,
    Iran and the 13 Imam.

    The risk of the new paradigm is even graver
    and more serious than than the old paradigm.
    And a higher probability of a Pearl Harbor type
    nuclear attack.

    N. KOREA, IRAN and TERRORIST pose a bigger threat of
    a nuclear strike than Russia ever has.


    Internet Anthropologist
  28. tt23 Member

    Small countries seeking nukes have no way neither aim to achieve MAD. They just plain dont have the means, and it is not what they seek - the reasons these countries seek nukes is 1) deter invasion; 2) cause all sorts mischief including 3) sell them

    Well global thermonuclear war is/was still a bigger threat then even a few terrorist nukes.

    Indeed this was surprisingly lame. Typically they are much better.

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