Discussion in 'News And Current Events' started by Twister, Aug 4, 2009.
Under Iranian law, yes.
Under (some) protestors lore, no
he did win a majority of the votes. a fact that still has not been rebutted by the opposition.
It doesn't have to be rebutted. The crooked regime failed to prove the vote count by demonstration, then started bashing and murdering people who questioned the count.
It was proven to be wrong, and the guy who leaked the documents proving it is now dead. Not "rebutted" my ass.
No, proof requires demonstration. Proof NEVER comes from assertions or statistics etc. In any case you are addressing the "not rebutted" issue to the wrong poster because I haven't claimed it was not rebutted.
You cant prove a negative. You cannot prove that there was NO fraud. The burden is upon those making the claims of fraud to prove their claims.
Two months later and we are still waiting.
There was a partial recount. The Ministry of Interior relased results from EVERY single ballot box in the country. Mousavi himself, had 40,000+ observers present at the polls, who signed off on all the ballot boxes (approximately 89% of the ballot boxes in the country), and the vote tallies, in the polling stations they were present at. The copies of these signatures were produced in the Guardian Council's report.
Iran: “Full text of the detailed report of the Guardian Council on the presidential election” WarLaw
The "leaked real results" has proven to be a fabrication. All the opposition can claim is that Ahmadinejad got extra publicity, they cut off SMS the day of election, etc etc. All unfair campaign tactics, but NOT voter fraud.
Mousavi has claimed several times that he will produce documents, that he will produce a report. Where are they?
You are right unreg, but it is very difficult to get a proof of such things in theocratic or dictatorial regimes. In such a countries it is very difficult,if not impossible, to show the documents which contradict leader's version of events.
Who will publish such documents? If they are published what will happen to the people who published such documents? What will happen to the people who provided the proof of a lie of the Leader of Iran? How do you know that Mousavi or Rafsanjani do not have such a documents but can not show it because of what would happen to them and to the republic if they show these documents? If they would show such documents their proof would attack the very basis of the Islamic Republic of Iran, the documents would show in black and white that Leader of the Republic lies, that Revolutionary Guards lie, that government officials lie and that the corruption and lies are everywhere. Everybody know about corruptions and lies but do you remember what happened when one of the MPs in majlis presented to all the documents that mullahs were corrupt? He went to prison. It does not matter that it was an ahmadinejad's guy, the problem was that he publicly talked about mullah's corruption . Now what would happen if somebody shows publicly that Sepah and the Leader lie? Mousavi or Rafsanjani want some changes but neither wants IRI to fall.
You are talking about the burden of proof but there is no such thing in theocratic republic, not if the people who provide such proof want theocratic republic to stand and not to fall. Have you thought about it? .
The burden of proof that the elections were fair is upon the government, and every time the government has been asked to offer their proof, the ones asking have been beaten, killed, and when there were too many to do this to, only partial and misleading details were released. What good does it do to show us a tiny fraction of the total? A fraction that it took them weeks to gather together and prepare, I might add. Why did they need weeks to do the recount? the votes were right there, they could have started immediately. I'll tell you why. They didn't need weeks to do the recount, they needed weeks to prepare a fraudulent sample. And they knew they could never re-create all the votes they claimed that he received, so they just did a small sample.
How stupid do you think people are? Only simpletons and idiots fall for this! It is insult to everyone's intelligence when they say this shit and expect us to believe it. how stupid do you think we are?.
Doesn't matter, anyway. There is no turning back. Change is coming, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. They had their chance, and they just used it to spit on the people, yet again. No more chances!
How hard is it to present counter tallies? They had observers over 89% of the ballot boxes, all of which they signed off on. They cannot produce a single discrepancy?
They came and took the boxes away, lokced. Why could they not count the votes there, in front of the observers, like they have always done? Why did they have to come and take them away to be counted in secret, with no observers?
You call that "signed off"? I suppose you believe confessions that are made at gunpoint, too? Technically, they confessed, right? So it must be true!
But the opposition have not made this claim. This rumour persists among the opposition's supporters, but has not been propounded by Mousavi or Karroubi themselves, and it is further evidenced by the fact that their own observers signed off on the VOTE TALLIES.
Unless the protesters have some secret knowledge that Mousavi, Kerroubi, and their observers dont have?
The people who started these "rumors" you gloat about where there to see the boxes being locked up and taken away themselves.
We do not need Mousavi to do this. You have locked him up and closed him off from the world. That is obvious. You have tortured and drugged his people, and forced them to make false confessions at the end of a gun. We know this. You can say "well, they confessed" and claim that makes everything you are doing right, but we know the truth.
Are you so blind that you cannot see that the entire country that you believe you are "protecting" has become sick of your "protection"? We need someone to protect us from you! You are an animal, killing and cannibalizing it's own kind.
Mousavi filed complaints. Issued one written "report." But in none of them did he make the claim of "secret counting." Nor has anyone from his office or camp made that claim.
Can you name or cite ONE PERSON who was "there to see the boxes being locked up and taken away themselves"?
OH Yes, Mousavi is locked up, yet he visited with a group of people yesterday? They let him out on furloughs to visit with families?
The rest of the issues of "forced confessions" and other things (a) have nothing to do with election fraud, and (b) I agree with you about. But they still have nothing to do with the fact that the elections have been clean, and the claims of fraud are unsubstantiated and desperate attempts by the opposition.
Nice try, but you know that I won't name them. You'd have them arrested and killed. How stupid do you think I am?
Nice try. Go troll for more victims somewhere else.
And oh, if I were you, I'd start being paranoid about my fellow basij. They aren't all on your side anymore, you know. Your collapse will come from within.
1. I thought they were already locked up?
2. Which is it: they made public statements about the "secret counting"? Or it is too dangerous for you to name their names?
3. Why didn't Mousavi include these issues in his complaints or report?
Look. It is fine to protest against the regime, overthrow it, whatever you want. There is plenty things messed up. But lets stop pretending that the election was rigged, because all the fraud claims are weak and lack credibility. And also lets stop trying to hide behind hystrionics and "basiji" accusations for everyone who questions the oppositions narrative. It makes you very much the same as the Shah, and the current regime. (I suppose it is good to know that things wont be much different when the current opposition comes to power).
Public-statement is made by the ones who did the secret counting.
A public statement does not mean at all that the 2nd count of only 10 % was not as rigged as the election itself !
because the complaints where formulated before the second count.
So there would be only one way to stop that discussion about that possible election fraud:
Rehold the elections under UN survay.
Iran would gain the most international respect by doing that.
And if nothing wrong happened than there is nothing to fear !
And yes, it would make a difference if the opposition will come to power:
The molesting, beating, tortouring and killing of unarmed, peacefully and brave Irani would stop.
That's the main thing that counts for me !
You've been busy tonight. In here, hissing your venom, blocking Mousavi's page, hacking into computers and generally doing exactly what has driven the nation to revolt. Keep it up. You only hurt yourself.
There were other problems with the election...hand picked by the IRG, excluding most others from running, unequal tv time between candidates.
(1 minute vs half an hour)
Not to mention a lot of other voting day discrepancies and tactics by Ahmadi's people.
And of course none of it really matters if they never counted the votes in the first place...which many believe. (I'm inclined to agree as well)
Hopefully, although let's not forget that in the past people were still slaughtered by the IRG and others even while Khatami and Mousavi were in charge. I don't think that would happen now...but Iranian's should be ready for anything. (How good are new strings on a shoe if the bottom is missing?)
Your right but if You dicided to get new strings the way to the shoemaker is easier to consider
ffs it's obvious the white house was forced to make this statement by the fuckin scumbag mullahs in iran just so they can get back those stupid hikers. ffs wtf were those dumb asses doing hiking in fucking iraq near the god damn border, jesus christ go hike somehwere where americans aren't hated you dipshits. this is pathetic, i just hope the iranian people won't feel like crap due to this bs statement. Obama god damn it i voted for you and i'm starting to think i made a mistake.
told it before, the secret was in the backpacks of the hikers
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