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Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

Discussion in 'Independent Scientology' started by Anonymous, Jun 24, 2010.

  1. Anonymous Member

    Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I don't really know why I've had to explain this so many times, but here goes:

    Copyright law is very strict in the US. Works do not go into public domain for a very long time.

    WHEN WORKS PASS INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

    Since Hubbard wrote in the 50's and 60's primarily, and there was no doubt a renewal on his copyright in the 70's and 80's, the earliest something could into the public domain - and this is Dianetics itself, not anything he wrote later - is 2017. And that's if the cult doesn't argue for an extension of copyright and win, which companies often do. The reason copyright law is so vicious as it stands is that every once in a while, Mickey Mouse threatens to go into public domain because of that early "Steamboat Willie" cartoon, and Disney goes to the courts and gets an extension, which ends up applying to the general law.

    The owner of all of Hubbard's works, written or otherwise, from his shitty sci-fi to his audio lectures in the 1970's, is DAVID MISCAVIGE. His likeness may even by copyrighted.

    I'm not sure of the particulars, but when Hubbard died, a complex legal battle occurred over his estate and DM won it. HE OWNS SCIENTOLOGY. If you want to republish a book with Hubbard's name on it or any works within that may have been written by Hubbard, you need (a) his explicit permission and (b) to pay him for use of the work he owns. You can public small excerpts - this falls under "fair use" - but by small excerpts, I mean you would probably be able to publish 500 words of Dianetics and get away with it.

    Nor can you redistribute the books you already own if you try and pass them off as new; you have to sell them as used books, and there are various laws about how you can go about doing that (the vendor, meaning the store, collects most of the money instead of only half of the cover price).

    There are also video use and audio use laws I'm not as familiar with, but DM can be just (if not more, because they're more recent) litigious with them. Want to screen a movie about the evils of psychiatry? Got to get the rights. What, DM won't give you the rights? You're screwed. If yo do it and he finds out, it could mean major fines.

    So, you may be asking - How can someone get the copyright out of DM's whiskey-soaked fingers? There are two ways:

    (1) A probably decades-long battle with DM, which BTW can happen even if he's in jail, because someone will be entrusted with his property. And he'll probably win, too.

    (2) The death of DM and a decades-long battle with his estate, which can be just as powerful as the person himself, and actually can get much messier. While this battle is going on, works cannot be republished, so you're essentially shutting down the presses on Scientology while you're having it.

    This means Marty could, as he is trying to, convert every loyal Scientologist to his side, physically take over the buildings, and somehow get Miscavige arrested without implicating himself (which he wouldn't be able to do) in the many things Miscavige did that were illegal during Marty's own time there, or even get Miscavige to flee to Colombia, but he STILL HAS TO PAY DM FOR EVERYTHING. AND GET HIS PERMISSION TO DO IT. That means Marty has to run the COS with only the existing materials, which can only be partially redistributed and cannot be sold. This means no new sales, especially to new meat. It means no screening of his lectures or videos, even current videos. If new videos are made, their content has to be checked by copyright lawyers to see what the content is and if any copyrighted material is being used. They could get away with it if DM decided not to pay attention, but as this is his source of income, he'll be paying attention.

    He may also own all the files of Scientology, depending on what he's copyrighted. He can argue that he owns personel files, which then cannot be distributed without his permission. A lot of companies have clauses that snap up the content of whatever an employee writes, so he could load up everyone's files on the Freewinds and sail off, and no one could touch him.

    In other words, there will be no coup at Scientology. Not one that is successful, anyway.
  2. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Edit:

    tl;dr: DM owns all COS materials, written or otherwise, and nobody can use them without his permission.
  3. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Aren't the copyrights in the hands of the Church of Spiritual Technology (DBA The L. Ron Hubbard Library) which exists independent of RTC and the CSI?
  4. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    What hapens when DM drops his wittle body by natural causes or in case of an accident? Since he owns all the copyrights?
    IMO.....I doubt that Hubbard would have specified in his will that DM was to own all of his copyrights?
    I mean it may have been specified in the will.... I just don't think Hubbard would have done that if he was of sound mind at the time of his death.

    Wonder what will be in DM's will?
    Certainly Shelly will be in his will? ahem
  5. Yoni Alter Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Big copyright person signing in here.

    Copyright is passed to DM's estate. For example, I'm published, and since I published in the aughts, my copyright will be good for 70 years after my death. As I currently have no spouse or heirs, I have to draw up a will to leave my literary estate to a relative. I can revise the will at any time, and probably will.

    DM's estate is whomever he wants it to be. He could will it to a warlord in Colombia if he wanted to. Estates can be contested, and often are, but if the legal battle goes on, works specified as being under the estate cannot be republished because the copyright is contested.
  6. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    interesting. thanks
    wonder who will get his estate.
  7. anonamus Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Hmm... Jenna, his beloved niece?
  8. Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I was under this impression as well.

    If DM personally owns the copyrights, then his ouster would pretty much mean the death of organized Scientology in any form.
  9. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    How does the "religious services exemption" portion of the US Copyright Law come into play?
  10. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    lol.
    yeah or his beloved wife Shelly lol again
  11. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    The copyrights are bogus by either illegal transfer -- DM was the notary public, (but lost his book) mental capacity, improper registration, or questions of authorship, (e.g. Mayo).

    That's why RTC had to settle RTC v Netcom.

    http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/klemesrud-discovery-plan.txt

    Erlich most likely signed a secret document attesting to his belief that the copyrights he infringed were genuine, in order to get his secret money. But the Reverend's say-so doesn't make them legitimate.
  12. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I would love to see Hubbard's will investigated and analyzed by the media today
  13. eddieVroom Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I certainly have thought so, and have also speculated that the respective Boards of those entities, if they have any true power at all, might be compelled to remove David Miscavige vis-a-vis Fidicuary Duty. The Boardmembers may also be vulnerable to lawsuit by "Loyal Scientologists" if THEY fail to act as Corporate Executives who are obligated to perform such Fidicuary Duty.

    THAT may be Marty's way in.
  14. TomVorm Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    The most effective method to question the legitimacy of the ownership of Scientology copyrights, is to challenge the legality of the transfer to CST of Hubbard's estate.
    This was adjudicated in Probate case #20085 of San Luis Obispo County, California, (which administered the "last minute" will allegedly signed by LRH).

    A challenge was tried in 1997 by FACTNET (as represented by Graham Berry), but was rejected by the Probate Court on the grounds that FACTNET did not have "standing" in the matter. What was apparently needed at that time was participation by a Hubbard heir (who would have "standing" per Probate statutes)

    It has been reported that Miscavige prevented that from happening back in 1986
    (when he coerced and paid off Hubbard's surviving family members, including Mary Sue Hubbard, to sign release forms which prevented their participation in the Probate case).
  15. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    geez
    unbelievable. Was Nibs also involved in that signing? He came forward in 1984 and left COS in 1959. Nibs was from Hubbard's first marraige. I guess he woudln't have been invloved at all with the will?
  16. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    So why even bring it up?
  17. TomVorm Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Mary Sue Hubbard was "handled" after the death of LRH.

    Here is the extract about Mary Sue:

    February 1986

    The Estate of L. Ron Hubbard is subject to the control of the Trustee, Norman Starkey.

    He is a junior of DM. DM and Starkey make an 800-page inventory list of all of LRH's copyrighted works, close to 20,000 individual works.

    DM says the probate of LRH's estate was important to him. Fulfilling Hubbard 's final wishes meant seeing that Scientology Scripture passed to the Church of Spiritual Technology.

    Miscavige had Mary Sue Hubbard under "house arrest" in Hollywood Hills in LA. She had two Sea Org members living with her and they went with her everywhere and reported daily to Miscavige what she did every day.

    Under duress, MSH made an agreement to waive her rights to her community share of the Estate of LRH. This is how Miscavige swindled Hubbard's heirs out of an inheritance worth 400 million. Soon after LRH's death, Miscavige takes Jesse Prince and over a dozen other Sea Org execs and invaded the house of Mary Sue Hubbard. She was recovering from lung cancer surgery and was in a wheelchair. Some of the other Sea Org members were Lyman Spurlock, Norman Starkey, Vicki Aznaran, Marc Yaeger, Ray Mithoff and Marty Rathbun.

    Larry Heller was one of the attorneys there representing Miscavige. MSH was unrepresented.

    Note: (He is one of the secret "Special Directors" of Church of Spiritual Technology.)

    Mary Sue was made to sign an agreement wherein she was paid $100,000 to relinquish any kind of claim on the copyrights, trademarks, and bank accounts. Ron's children were given $50,000 each. She did not want to sign and Miscavige started screaming at her "You are going to sign it!"

    Miscavige threatened to sec check Mary Sue and she said "No, I'm going to sec check you to find out what the hell you are trying to do to me."

    Miscavige said they were running the church, its got nothing to do with her and she was lucky to get what she's getting. Miscavige said "Everything LRH did, he did for the church. We are the church, not you. Therefore, everything is staying right here with us."

    The moment when she relinquished and signed the document, was when Mithoff made her feel that LRH did not care about her. She was sad that Ron died, because they had been separated and had not talked for a long time. She asked Mithoff, with tears in her eyes, if Ron had said anything, or asked about her before he passed. Mithoff said, "No, he didn't mention your name." At that, she bowed her head and they stuck the papers underneath her hand and she started signing. Mithoff bragged with great glee afterwards about how he got to her by telling her that.

    Ron's children had already been similarly handled prior to meeting with Mary Sue, and they had already signed, getting $50,000 each."

    Robert Dam on the Church of Scientology (CoS)
  18. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    huh?
    why so cross? Just chatting Johnny.
  19. Ann O'Nymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    It seems that OP is full of nice speculations.
  20. Squirrel King Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    It is, but Truth be told as much as they (Marty, Mike and company) want it to be a bonerfide religion, it is in essence a business. And as a business, it cannot sustain itself without controlling its products. They have zero chance of getting hold of them. If they did, the Church would just issue revised copies, new revelations and revamp the e-meter. The true believers will continue to buy from COS.
  21. JohnnyRUClear Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    All in a day's work for the most ethical people on the planet.

    'twas merely an attempt at a humorous implication about Hubbard's mental condition. :)
  22. Yoni Alter Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Not at all, as far as I know.
  23. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    ahhhhh ok
    whew!
    <3
  24. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    This pretty much confirms what I heard over at OCMB a while back, which is that DM is the sole owner of Hubbard's materials as a result of the handling of the estate back in 1986.

    There's a saying in publishing, "The rights always revert back to the author." When you sell a book to a publishing company, you're not selling the book. You're selling your right to copy (copyright) the book to the publishing company, in return for money, so that the publishing company can go and produce the book and distribute it. If the publishing company stops publishing the book or ceases to exist, or the contract is broken, the rights always revert back to the author.

    In this case, DM is the author, because he is in control of Hubbard's estate, and when the author is dead, the estate stands in for the author. I have no idea what exact legal nature exists between the CST and DM, but should CST cease to exist in its present form, the rights would revert back to DM again - unless he has signed them away completely, which I have no idea why he would do. Theoretically, if CST was taken over people by people hostile to DM, they could sue him for full control of the copyright, but they would have to win, and it would take a long time.

    Three scenarios:

    1) Sue DM, win, get the rights.
    2) Wait for DM to die, sue his estate, get the rights.
    3) Buy off DM to get him to give up the rights.

    None of them are good.
  25. Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I thought copyright finished 50 years after authors death?
  26. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    It depends when it was published. Check the link in the OP.
  27. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    There is doubt.

    • Jesse Prince affidavit, United States District Court for the District of Colorado, Bridge Publications Inc v. Factnet Inc; Lawrence Wollersheim; Robert Penny, Civil Action No. 95-K-2143, 1998
  28. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    No it doesn't. It confirms that Hubbard's estate or Author's Trust B had the rights and was later rolled into CST when it got its charity status.

    Where do you get that the copyrights somehow attached to DM personally?
  29. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    It was an old thing on OCMB. Sorry, speculation.

    As for works being in public domain, once they enter public domain, they can never leave it. So if anything did fall into public domain at any point, it's still there, and you can republish it without contacting CST or anyone else. They may try to sue you anyway, because they have the money to do it.

    To see if a copyright was renewed, you contact the Library of Congress and pay $150 for them to do a renewal search. If they don't find anything, you can safely assume it's in the public domain.

    Most of what he wrote in the 70's though - undoubtedly still a copyright on that.
  30. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    CST owns the LRH copyrights.

    All other cult organizations (RTC, etc) are obligated to relinquish their "license to use copyrighted rights" to CST, if they are deemed to have misused them or if they lose their "US recognized religious non-profit" (IRS 501c3) status.

    CST is the sole organization, where it is not specified how a rights transfer to another entity could be done.

    If CST loses its 501c3 status, IMO, the whole church hierarchy would be in jeopardy.
  31. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    CST wholly owns Author Services Inc (per the IRS agreement), which is where the royalties flow to, and was the main money pipeline to Hubbard. Also where Dave ran Scientology from for a few years before shifting to RTC.

    Church of Spiritual Technology (CST) (dba, L. Ron Hubbard Library)
  32. Yoni Alter Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I love this thread. People are posting all kinds of documentation I didn't have before.

    CST owns Hubbard, but doesn't Miscavige own CST?
  33. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I read somewhere that in order to be under 501c3 status, the organization cannot be guilty of any crimes and money cannot go to one person in the organization.(worded completely different of course)
    Still their status remains.
    HELLO???
  34. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    He controls it. That's not the same as owning it.

    If he personally owned it, then the IRS would be all over them* because of Scientology money accruing to benefit of a person or persons. The IRS was all set to jump on CoS for that reason back in the 80s, but luckily Hubbard died first.

    * assuming that the IRS ever finds its balls again.
  35. RightOn Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I also read this:

    "Under IRS rules, every nonprofit must file a 990 form with them every year.
    It's like the organization's tax return, although they don't pay taxes.
    It will list where the money comes from and where it goes."
    Learn more at Internal Revenue Service
    click "charities and nonprofits"
  36. DeathHamster Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    I believe that religious non-profits don't have to file. (Yeah, I know, CoS is neither religious nor non-profit.)
    Tax Information for Churches and Religious Organizations
  37. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    Religious non-profit corporations are not required to file an annual 990 form once they receive 501c3 status, which CST acquired by 1993.

    501c3 status can be stripped if it is proven a corporation violated IRS restrictions,
    such as engaging in a business for profit that is accrued in an unapproved manner
    (or if funds are directed inappropriately to benefit, or "inure," to a specific individual).
  38. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    No, "churches" don't have to file a 990. That's how Rev. Dennis Erlich got away with it -- the IRS gave him "church" status -- like the "church" of Scientology.
  39. Anonymous Member

    Re: Why Marty and Mike Cannot Take Over the COS

    *sigh* give it a rest already. It's kind of obvious who you are even without an IP address.
  40. RightOn Member

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