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Woo/Science /antivax/other stuph

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The Internet, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. The Internet Member

    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/04/02/i-do-not-think-that-study-shows-what-you-think-it-shows

    I just read the article above. It’s about a guy named Sayer Ji who runs a website, GreenMedInfo, and Kelly Brogan MD, a psychiatrist much like Peter Breggin. She doesn’t like vaccines or drugs and she thinks you can detox and diet your way to happiness.

    I guess there was an article about the HPV vaccine in the Lancet and Dr. Brogan wrote about that on Sayer Ji’s website. But some people said she didn’t represent the article accurately. One blogger made a meme to make fun of either Sayer Ji or Dr. Brogan or the GreenMedInfo site. I really don’t know what was in the meme because lawyers got involved and made the meme go away.

    So now I’m curious about this meme that caused so much butthurt. But my Google fu has failed me. That’s the part that annoys me. Surely some search engine bot must have cached something.

    Maybe one of you Internet bosses can help.

    Screen Shot 2014-04-02 at 11.58.14 PM.png
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  2. rof Member

    Way too complicated.

    Do they have a cult?
  3. The Internet Member

    Eh I dunno if you can call that vitalism stuff a cult or not. Mercola is kinda the head guy right now for that particular tribe, but there are a lot of other big names.

    Vitalism is the belief in an intelligent healing power of Nature. Not necessarily a problem, except for those vitalists who view much of modern medicine as a block to the vital force of Nature. Then you get anti-vax and conspiracy talk.

    I’m thinking I will never know about that meme that made the moonbats so butthurt. That is so wrong. But I will try to let it go.
  4. White Tara Global Moderator

    Curiosity is a good thing, it begets Striesanding :)
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  5. The Internet Member

    Weird. Kelly Brogan MD likes one of those sites that has CCHR stuff on it: http://reviveprimarycare.com/psychiatry-fraud

    You can see her name at the bottom as one of the “tags.” From her pics she looks young. She got her board certification in 2009 I think. So she might be in her late 20s.

    How did she handle the cognitive dissonance when she was studying all that BigPharma that she must have viewed as just lies?
  6. White Tara Global Moderator

    Corrupt the enemy from within is my best guess. :(
  7. The Internet Member

    Heh, she’s pimping a brain stimulator thing for depression for some company which she’s involved with. I found a video where she talked about the seriousness of post partum depression --“I don’t like my patients to take a break” from the brain stimulator, due to how bad the depression can be. But then on her Facebook she has all that CCHR stuff which claims depression and other psych diagnoses are mostly bullshit.

    Weird.

    Here she is pimping the thing:

  8. The Internet Member

    Facebook profile pic from 2014:

    Screen Shot 2014-04-03 at 3.00.26 AM.png


    Facebook profile pic from 2013:

    Screen Shot 2014-04-03 at 3.01.41 AM.png

    Edit (reversed dates) WTF, she got a lot older. Or that first pic is someone else. But that’s a professional Facebook page so I don’t know why she’d want another person’s pic as her profile.
  9. The Internet Member

    She thinks vaccines are a big conspiracy. WTF, don’t they make MDs take immunology?

    Screen Shot 2014-04-03 at 3.08.37 AM.jpg

    She’s wrong about shingles. I know about that because my mom got shingles last year. When you get chicken pox the virus stays in a nerve root for the rest of your life. You make antibodies and that keeps the virus from spreading. If you go on steroids or chemo or you have some immune problem the virus replicates and you get a rash on your skin in the area served by that nerve root --i.e., shingles.

    So if you get the vaccine and you never get chicken pox you won’t get shingles. You have to get chicken pox first to get shingles, basically.
  10. The Internet Member

    July 2013 she starts a YouTube channel and she looks like this:

  11. The Internet Member

    Found the older one:

    Screen Shot 2014-04-03 at 3.29.35 AM.png
  12. White Tara Global Moderator

    I had chicken pox as a child, then when my immune system was compromised as it is for women during pregnancy I got shingles to one area of my face, the most intolerable pain ever. So fuck her and her ilk, vaccines are where its at.
    • Like Like x 4
  13. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    It is a charming thought that our bodies can do a better job of healing ourselves than medical intervention. Charming as in magical. She needs to look at the stats of women's ages before and after the germ theory and obstetrics.
    Home birth works great for uncomplicated births in healthy people. For those with medical complications who want a home birth, a practitioner that encourages that is a fool. Unfortunately people who are told their bodies can do a better job healing naturally, who then need medical intervention, feel as if they have failed in some way.
    Nothing goes horribly wrong faster than a problem delivery. Glitter ponies don't do shit for eclampsia, stroke, DIC,uterine rupture and placenta previa. If only there was some way our bodies could heal that. * Glitter*
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Her pain treatments are silly, some of those medications she is nattering about are only experimental so her patients won't get them.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. The Internet Member

  16. Sonichu Moderator

  17. As ifness Member

    I sympathize very strongly, The Internet. I was nearly going to try to make a meme for you, but I concluded that it would not meet the need.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Woo Hah Member

    Scientology can help you with that. Squeeze the cans please.
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  19. Woo Hah Member

    Take off your wedding ring. It's interfering with the E-meter reads.
    • Like Like x 2
  20. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    This post is a jewel, idiocy and rational response. Doesn't get more succinct than this.
  21. Woo Hah Member

    ^ needs to become a mod. Oh wait.
    • Like Like x 2
  22. tinfoilhatter Member

    How long has she been practicing? I worry about her patients.
  23. The Internet Member


    Screen Shot 2014-04-03 at 11.27.28 AM.png
  24. DeathHamster Member

    You'd think.

    WTF is a "holistic psychiatrist"‽‽‽

    Is she a real board-certified psychiatrist in the state that she practices (can be checked online), or is this yet another POS like "naturopathic doctor"? (And which Crackerjack Box institution gave her an MD?)

    Edit: So she really is certified as a psychiatrist? Good God.
    • Like Like x 1
  25. The Internet Member

  26. DeathHamster Member

    • Like Like x 1
  27. RavenEyes Member


    Her secondary (subspecialty) license is in "psychosomatic medicine", and falls under the psychiatric umbrella. I'd never heard of it, so had to do some googling. It's where the "holistic psychiatry" comes from, it appears. If the ABPN licenses it, it's less woo than it appears.

    http://www.psychiatryunplugged.com/2010/11/what-is-psychosomatic-medicine.html
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  28. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Mod is having problems speling and prooff readen comments today. Plz forgive.
    • Like Like x 2
  29. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    She is.. Fortunately for all of us most Psychs are sane, but its like a magnet to the students questioning their own reality.
    • Like Like x 1
  30. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Other crazy but well trained physicians
    Conrad Murry
    Cecil Jacobson
    Jack Kevorkian
    Michael Swengo (Blind Eye- documents to continued progress through medical training and jobs of this psycho. He was advanced each time there was a problem to get rid of him to the next hospital. No one stopped him. He ended up murdering over a hundred people who were his patients in Africa, after murdering his patients here.
    /rant
    She is crazy in a pleasant looking package. She is a menace to public health as well as her poor patients.
    • Like Like x 1
  31. DeathHamster Member

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  32. The Internet Member

    All the big name MDs, like the ones on Huffington Post and Dr. Oz, they’re all in this Integrative Medicine shtick now. And their companies donate mega-millions to medical schools so they can poop out sciency papers.

    When I ask doctors about people like Dr. Oz pimping homeopathy, they mostly shrug their shoulders. Our local hospital has an “integrative medicine” department and last time I was in the ER I asked about that. The nurse was like, “Lol, we are in the ER and we don’t have to deal with that."

    WTF, either there are evidential rules or not. And if the rules become optional, then black is white and up is down and totalitarian dictatorship what are your crimes.
    • Like Like x 2
  33. Disambiguation Global Moderator


    There are evidence based parts of Integrative Medicine. Dr. Brogan would be laughed off the stage at any Integrative Medicine conference. They believe in vaccines, appropriate medical therapy, and science.

    I wish I had a venn diagram of Integrative Medicine and woo. It's not a 50% overlap. Integrative medicine and Holistic medicine aren't the same thing.
    Dr. Brogan uses the terms interchangeably.

    This guy has problems too.
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...ink-that-study-shows-what-you-think-it-shows/

    Homeopathy isn't dangerous, only the belief that it cures disease is dangerous. The problem is in confusing comfort measures (homeopathy, acupuncture, chiropathy) with actual treatment. Sloppy thinkers like Brogan are dangerous.
    And anti-GMO views are not woo.
  34. The Internet Member

    Plain old ordinary medical care included vaccines, appropriate medical therapies, and science, long before the “integrators” appeared. The whole point of including the evidenced based stuff under the “integrative” umbrella is to make the woo seem legit.

    If “integrative” meant 100% woo, I would be fine with it because it would be honest. It would mean, “unproven, implausible, and disproven stuff.”

    By integrating the unproven with stuff that has passed a minimal evidential standard, you basically prove that the standard doesn’t matter. You change the culture of medicine on a fundamental level.

    I predict that doctors who can think critically will leave the profession because the cognitive dissonance of working in hospitals promoting woo will slowly take its toll.
  35. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Agree
    WTF reality testing
  36. The Internet Member

    Yes, but there has to be a balance with patient autonomy, as RickyBobby argued to me in another thread. So if a patient is seriously deluded or in a cult we can’t just bend them to our will. Let them chase after their past life engrams or whatever. But be honest about the evidence. I think that is the best we can do.

    Integrative medicine is sneaky. The integrative doctor goes, “Good advice, good advice, good advice, stupid advice,” and the poor patient doesn’t know which part is not legit. Plus they talk out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to vaccines, depending who is listening.
  37. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    OMG we have wandered into this area again- abandon hope all ye who etc etc
    Most of the benefit from Integrative Medicine approach is lifestyle change. We all know a healthier diet, more exercise, not smoking, less stress, better sleep is beneficial. Getting people to commit to the change has always been the problem. It's one thing to pronounce it, its another thing entirely to get people to do it.
    Integrative Medicine has several areas that help people actually change behavior. Some of it is philosophical- call it anti-western pill taking and testing and dependency mindset that has to change before people take control of their health in an active manner. This philosophy is always the problem. The attitude change has to occur, but this allows woo to enter into health care.
    Comfort measures help with committing to behavioral change. The "heal with loving attention" is a philosophical change and you can think of it as a comfort measure.
    Baby:bathwater
  38. The Internet Member

    Communicating with patients and encouraging lifestyle changes has long been the bread and butter of regular primary care medicine and health psychology. The idea that medicine = pills and surgery is propaganda.

    This journal, Health Psychology, has online editions back to the early 1980s: http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/hea/
  39. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  40. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    with lukewarm results
    Thats right.
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