Woo/Science /antivax/other stuph

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by The Internet, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. The Internet Member

    Lukewarm results? I think you are moving the goal posts.

    My point was, before the “integrative medicine” movement, people were using science to look at variables that help patients to make lifestyle changes in their own best interests. Lots of people in several scientific fields. So no fair for the integrators to claim ownership of this stuff.

    What I see from the integrators is shit evidence and impressive marketing. For example Dean Ornish and his program of 19 things that will prevent cancer if you do them all, which nobody does. He has so many drop outs and confounds he can make his data say anything. And when this is pointed out to him, he is like, fuck off I am a big cheese. Then he gets invited by Tom Harkin to Congress to help set national health care policy. That’s the “impressive results” those guys bring.

    Integrative medicine’s research base is NCCAM. Guess how many awesome therapies that multibillion dollar institution has given to humankind.
  2. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    And yet many of our heath problems are still self induced and completely avoidable. In order to get behavioral change patients must change their attitudes from passive to active. I know this has all been said, and for years, but as a society we have not achieved the change. The new philosophy is helping people change. The danger is keeping evidence-based medicine in the midst of the change. Nothing is gained by denying the benefit of attitudinal change because it hasn't been done exactly right each time and on each topic.
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  3. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  4. The Internet Member

    Sorry. I only come up with half baked ideas it seems so I always edit all the time. I will chill though, because I lurves you.
  5. The Internet Member

    If it were really true that embracing some total philosophy involving “transformation” of the self or spirit or soul jacked people out of their addictions and self destructive patterns, we should be able to show that with some controlled studies, eh?

    But with the integrators, they have this bad habit of saying science doesn’t work when the science fails to come out as they hoped. Then they try to sell you some Mercola style bullshit.

    My speculation: Most promising therapies don’t pan out. That is the sad reality of medical research, due to the complexity of the problems. This means all the cost is in the research and development. Once a product or copyrighted thing makes it through that phase, mostly profit until the IP window closes.

    Until alternative aka CAM aka IM, the medical progress highway was littered with 90% failures. Then bean counters noticed you could market the fail to the unwary if you framed the fail as suppression by wealthy corporations. So an intervention that has some animal studies or some phase II results that look good but is turning to crap once phase III trials start, now gets sent to marketing firms that present the ideas to the public directly, bypassing peer review. Ergo, IM.

    Shit it is a disease, this half baked thinking. Sorry. I will now go compose a song for some fish I saw in a pet store.
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  6. The Internet Member

    But first, I wonder who Dr. George Brogan might be.

    Screen Shot 2014-04-03 at 8.09.02 PM.png

    OMG, cornstarch!
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  7. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    It's shown that attitudinal change works, and some techniques are more effective than others.

    Integrative Medicines' "healing with loving attention" -this is how it works. It takes an attitudinal change in the physician.

    Where do you get this shit? Moonbats are the ones to say science doesn't work when they don't like the results. You confuse Integrative Medicine as with moonbats. There is some overlap ( where is that goddamn venn diagram?)

    You can market anything to the unwary, the anti-western medicine attitude sells.

    Most medical research is done or sponsored by pharmaceutical companies. Drugs are developed if they will be profitable. Effective drugs that don't get manufactured because they will not be profitable are called orphan drugs. Pharmacuetical marketing is a corrupt system in both directions.

    Don't call yourself half baked : )
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  8. The Internet Member

    Can you tell me the name of an Integrative Medicine doctor who avoids all things moonbat?
  9. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    No. You purist.
  10. The Internet Member

    Yes and no on the corruption charge.

    Desire is corruption because desire tells you what you would like to be so. Everyone has desire. But not everyone has the same desire. So it is possible to check desire using people with different desires.

    For example, the guy running a study who wants positive results can be checked by peers who want to be seen as smart and impartial. If the guy getting the pharma grant hangs out in the same university department as peers with different funding, that will have an impact. Also if the guy with the pharma grant has other grants from competing companies, it will be easier for him to walk away from any single company that tries to own him.

    But due to the OMG bigPharma bad! campaign, pharma money went away from universities and into private companies beholden to the people who want positive results. In my opinion, bad thing.

    Universities hurting for cash then started rolling over big for the quack industry (e.g., the Bravewell Collaborative) out of desperation. That is how we got IM.

    When you consider that most clinical trials didn’t pan out back in the day, it is hard to argue that all the studies were rigged.
  11. The Internet Member

    Purist? Are there any rules of evidence?

    The fake treatments seem to work in the same way that the bell made Pavlov’s dogs salivate. Patients are conditioned to expect relief from therapies that usually do something useful, thanks to science. A doctor acting like a therapy is a real medical intervention will provoke that conditioned relief response.

    But Pavlov’s dogs would slowly learn to stop salivating if frequently there was no meat arriving in their bowls.

    Why should we allow quacky things to dilute the conditioned part of medical care that adds a little extra relief?
  12. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Studies aren't rigged so much as tweaked. The results of some studies are ignored if they aren't profitable.
    Drug A is tested as a anti-hypertensive and found ineffective in all measurements but one. The study is redesigned to augment that small effect.
  13. DeathHamster Member

    That fucker Sayer Ji has a ludicrous number of blogs. I thought CoS were the champion astroturfers, but this guy takes it to a new level.
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  14. The Internet Member

    Seems okay to me, so long as that sub-population enjoys a real benefit over alternatives.

    “Love”? I can understand caring and respect. But I tend to use “love” to mean an attachment bond where you are willing to bear considerable personal sacrifice for the other person.

    If one person is writing a check to the other person, doesn’t seem like “love” to me.

    I bet people who join cults get confused about the “love” issue a lot. IM = cult medicine, so it is not surprising, I suppose, if the IM guys are saying “love” a lot.
  15. The Internet Member

    Let’s say you are a doctor who wants to base your recommendations on the best evidence available. The scientific consensus then shows that demonstrations of nurturing caring really help with little or no side effects. Seems to me that you would go ahead and act more parental, saying, “I’m so happy for you!” and giving hugs and such, because that would be the style associated with better outcomes.

    So if you already have doctors who respect evidence, where is there any need to change their “attitudes”?

    Convincing people with evidence is the way to go if you respect people. Demanding an attitude change because you demand one, that is cultish.
  16. The Internet Member

    Seems like everytime I check out some fresh faced Mercola type quack I bump into a lot more spooks than I expect.

    For example, Kelly Brogan’s dad:

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  17. DeathHamster Member

    There's no "Sayer Ji" Wikipedia article, no record of a deleted one, and if that's not his real name, no redirect to the main article?

    Granted if there was one, it would be a battleground article, and it'd be quite a job to try to find neutral authoritative sources, but the fact there is no article at all is strangely weird.
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  18. White Tara Global Moderator

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  19. The Internet Member

    Hypothetically, what if many people within the US intelligence community were using their media connections and piles of black budget money to promote quackery and anti-vax to America? Does not seem a good idea so hard to explain, right?

    These are our fellow Americans so it is safe to assume that they do not want to harm us. So... wtf, hypothetically.

    Researches continue...
  20. The Internet Member

    Oh here is something to entertain y’all while I troll around the webs:

    Cherie Blair and Hilary Clinton wearing The Bio Electric Shield.
  21. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Anti vaxxers take note.
    This is why.
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  22. The Internet Member

    Dr. Brogan’s bio mentions that she was gung-ho alt med before she went to medical school. But she tells a slightly different story at the same time. She says she was a believer in BigPharma until her fellowship in consult psychiatry when she cared for pregnant women. Then she poured over books and realized the lies about the flu shot. Then she embraced Nature.

    The bio:

    I’ve never heard of the Hippocratic Society. I will have to Google.

    Example of her narrative of buying into BigPharma but rejecting that viewpoint after seeing it “from the inside.”:

    The list of scary vaccine ingredients seems to be an NVIC talking point because I’ve seen that stupid argument before. Lol, sucrose.

    It is true we don’t have double blinded controlled studies for every damn thing specifically. But often that’s not necessary. In science, you can use a bit of logic and extrapolation from what you already know to fill in the blanks. For example, sucrose is just a molecule of glucose attached to fructose. The molecule gets split in your tummy. Your body loves glucose and fructose so you don’t have to worry that a microscopic amount of sucrose in a shot will damage an unborn baby.
  23. The Internet Member

    I Googled a phrase from the post above that Dr. Brogan claims is from the flu vax insert:

    It is also not known whether influenza virus vaccine can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman.

    I got 6 pages of results but all from anti-vax and chiro sites. I assume it is a legit quote from the flu shot package insert but apparently legit docs aren’t worried about it.

    My guess is, doctors don’t think it is ethical to do a double blind study of the flu shot in pregnant women. Just like it would not be ethical to do a study comparing jumping from a plane with a parachute versus without. We already know that a bad case of the flu lowers the oxygen levels in your blood. Low oxygen is not good for unborn babies. Also I hear pregnant women can get a really bad case of the flu for some reason.
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  24. DeathHamster Member

    It's been a long-time favorite of the mind control conspiracy kooks. Over time, all the kook theories grow together, eventually forming a Unified Moonbat Theory.

    It'll turn out that chemtrail-spraying Nazi UFOs are attracted to sucrose that's been activated by RFID chips.
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  25. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    Of course not. Of course we don't know that, because we haven't done double blind studies on humans, for the reason The Internet notes. Studies have been done in animals. If there is evidence from animal studies of fetal injury the drug is labeled as +possible to cause harm in the FDA notes.

    Some flus (swine flu and bird flu in particular) effected pregnant women. Their mortality rate was higher than infants.
    The argument is
    -look how dangerous vaccines are
    The answer needs to be
    -look at how dangerous infectious diseases are, subtract the morbidity from vaccines and then compare. Of course you would have to study what morbidity of vaccines are, instead of throwing out conjectures.
  26. Disambiguation Global Moderator

    BTW where the fuck did the anti- floride people go?
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  27. Anonymous Member


    Your brilliant assessment brought to mind this recent assessment which could be renamed (with your blessing) to become - A Unified Moonbat Theory:

    VENN OF quackery@0.jpg

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  28. Disambiguation Global Moderator

  29. The Internet Member

    Kelly Brogan married Andrew Fink, originally from Santa Barbara CA. His dad wrote a book promoting Laetrile and dodgy clinics south of the border for desperate cancer patients (Steve McQueen, RIP)

    john m fink third option.png

    I have been Googling up stuff about the Laetrile wars. Funny how old documents sound like stuff happening today.

    Boil some apricot pits and you can distill all natural compounds that will break down into cyanide if you nom them. People have called these compounds, “amygdalins."

    Back in the dark ages of medicine, the early 20th century, people gave amygdalin to cancer patients because fuck, why not. One of those people was Dr. Ernst Krebs in San Francisco. But prior to that he was helping bootleg whisky makers with his chemistry testing skills, thereby getting rich and making connections. Then prohibition repealed. So on to the quackery gig.

    Dr. Krebs’ son tried to be a doctor but not gud at skool. Only got part way. Still he called himself a doctor and he helped out with the amygdalin business. The Krebs team created the Laetrile trademark.

    Things got rolling in a big way when a VIP from Canada, Andrew McNaughton, got involved. He set up the McNaughton Foundation, which later became

    Cancer Control Society
    2043 N. Berendo St.
    Los Angeles, CA 90027

    Berendo, hmm...

    McNaughton set up a branch of his Foundation in San Francisco. Screencap of a doc from the UCSF library:
    Screen Shot 2014-04-12 at 2.11.55 AM.png

    Yes that is THE Ron Rakow, the guy involved with the Reed Slatkin scam. Yet another coincidence involving olde time quacks and scammers and our modern crop of anti-vax vitamin crazies.
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  30. The Internet Member

  31. 278


    G. Megan Shields, M.D.

    r. G. Megan Shields, M.D. graduated with honors from the College of William and Mary. She earned her medical degree from the Medical College of Virginia, Virginia Commonwealth University. She did her residency in family practice at the University of California Irvine.

    Dr. Shields has received numerous awards for her contributions as an educator. She has also researched and published papers on the subject of chemical detoxification. Dr. Shields is now using Prolotherapy to treat patients with chronic pain.

    She has been in private family practice since 1980.
  32. Anonymous Member

    Screen Shot 2014-04-12 at 7.28.04 AM.png Screen Shot 2014-04-12 at 7.28.40 AM.png
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  33. The Internet Member

    Does Megan Shields tie into the Kelly Brogan-Fink MD story? Or is just an example of another MD who promotes woo. If just an example, cool but I think there are hundreds and this thread will get hard to follow if we put them all here.

    To recap: Kelly Brogan married Andrew Fink so I will sometimes call her Kelly Brogan-Fink MD just to make that point. Her father-in-law is John M. Fink who wrote a book promoting medical tourism and Laetrile back in 1960ish. That book is now in its zillionth printing.

    Laetrile was scam back in the 1970s. Movie stars and politicians promoted it to the general public. Congress tried to force the FDA to allow Laetrile but the FDA stood firm and after exhaustive, expensive investigations and hearings the United States finally let go of Laetrile in the 1980s.

    In summary, Laetrile was associated with a criminal network damaging to scientific standards. This network had compelling influence within the highest levels of the US and Canadian governments. It was able to convince many in the US Congress to abandon rules of evidence. Nothing is a greater threat to our freedom than that. “Those who can convince you to ignore rules of evidence can convince you to commit atrocities."

    It is reasonable to speculate that the same network continues, only now with younger players, based on the fact that Kelly Brogan-Fink the anti-psychiatry psychiatrist, exists.

    So let’s learn a little more about the Laetrile network...

    McNaughton Trust parapsychology.png
    Parapsychology, eh? Going exterior and talking to thetans and using OT powers to influence MEST --interesting stuff.

    Dammit Google gives me nothing. However, there is one mention of “parapsychology” on a McNaughton Foundation website: The Academy of Parapsychology and Medicine.
    Well now, we are back to Kelly Brogan MD. She has a board certification in Holistic Medicine, although I think the organization’s name has changed a couple of times since 1978.
  34. The Internet Member

    The Laetrile doctors:

    Dr Ernest T. Krebs, jr. Ph.D., D.Sc. (son of the bootlegger doctor)
    Dr Ernest T. Krebs, Sr. M.D. (bootlegger doctor with a fancy mansion in San Francisco)
    Dr N. R. Bouziane, M.D.
    Dr Dean Burk, Ph.D. (big cheese at NIH)
    Dr Ernesto Contreras, M.D. (Tijuana Clinic for the movie stars)
    Dr Francisco Contreras, M.D. (Tijuana Clinic for the movie stars)
    Dr. Harold Manner, M.D.
    Dr. Philip Binzel, M.D.
    Dr Christian Deckers, M.D.
    Dr Ettore Guidetti, M.D.
    Dr Charles Gurchot, Ph.D.
    Dri. D. Hamilton, M.D.
    Dr Maurice Kowan, M.D.
    Dr I. Maisin, jr. M.D.
    Dr I. Maisin, sr. M.D.
    Dr Leon Lewis, M.D.
    Dr John A. Morrone, M.D.
    Dr Manuel Navarro, M.D.
    Dr Hans A. Nieper, M.D.
    Edward Spicer, esq.
    Dr Emory Thurston, Ph.D., D.Sc.
    Dr Prof. Manfred Von Ardenne
    Dr. John A. Richardson, M.D. (marginal general practitioner in San Francisco who became a multi millionaire with Laetrile)
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  35. The Internet Member

    Excerpts from a pro-laetrile site,
    Lol, food factor.

    John Beard’s “trophoblastic theory of cancer”: In the late 1800s, a Scottish physician, Dr. John Beard (1845-1924) noticed that a cell that forms part of the placenta, the trophoblast, shares some similarities with cancer cells. It replicates rapidly and insinuates itself into the uterine wall. Dr. Beard speculated that trophoblasts might come loose and travel through the bloodstream, lodging within the mother or the baby and later becoming cancer tumors. He noticed that trophoblasts deteriorate 57 days after fertilization which is when the fetus’ pancreas starts secreting digestive enzymes. So maybe enzymes kill trophoblasts and maybe they will kill cancer!

    Dude was wrong, but hey, he tried. Now back to Krebs Sr in his mansion on S Van Ness Ave during prohibition...

    Krebs was a doctor but I guess it did not pay that great. Mostly he worked for smugglers who wanted someone to test the type of alcohol in their barrels. Because ethyl alcohol good, isopropyl alcohol bad. And like a lot of people making cheese or booze, Krebs was analyzing enzymes in hopes of improving the fermentation process. Twenty years for a bottle of scotch is hella long time to wait. amirite?

    Cutting to the chase: Krebs Sr promoted digestive enzymes and Laetrile as alt cancer treatments. As luck would have it, his adopted daughter owned an apricot orchard in the East Bay.
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  36. The Internet Member

    The Krebs named one of their other related remedies, “vitamin B15.” Here is a version you can order from G&G Vitamins in the UK for personal use, as it is not approved for sale in the US.

  37. Anonymous Member

  38. The Internet Member

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