Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I wouldn't flyer the neighbors. THe businesses get excited because they think they might get some regular customers. If you flyer the residents, you are giving free advertising. Effective use is to wait until they are open for business then flyer leaflets. It is too late to get residents to meeting to protest a cult moving in. You won't get anyone there by tomorrow. If any AO-style faggots show up and say "cult" or "kills" or "Lisa McFailson" or any other useless alien shit you will be providing the biggest footbullet. You might be able to get away with not wanting a cult if you lived in Sandy Springs, but don't show up from out of town and be a faggot. Also, they will throw you out. It's like talking about baby-killers because some Dr. office is moving in. They don't care, and you should not want them to care. This should be America and anyone can open a church or business, it's not up to gov't to say who can or cannot. (That is up to the Planning Commission, lol)
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The Southeastern batch of Anons that meet to protest in ATL don't have ANY AO-style f@ggots, thankfully. We're a more laid-back and cool-headed, socially-palatable bunch of nice young people who look swell in business attire and speak clearly, and slightly older professionals who have been at the "Scientology bites dick and here is why" protest thing for a long time. Even our youngest Anons are level-headed and effective (if a bit shouty in their amusing YT videos, which is LULZ.) We're not in it to be Big Name Anons, we just don't want the motherfucking cult in OUR town. Also, some of our out-of-towners ARE Atlantans, and are only out of ATL for school or family-related elder care, etc., and thus only temporarily geographically inconvenienced rather than not being "locals." We realize that we are REALLY lucky that our fucktard quotient is nearly nil. That said, I see your reasoning behind not approaching businesses, but I would differ on one point: stres that these poor schlubs do not pay their bills or buy a lot of services (because they can't; spare money gets rooted out by the cult and nabbed). The possibility of cult asshats trying to set up their testing tables will annoy the locals and possibly local business customers. Increased traffic and fewer parking spots (due to overflow), also bad. They like to petition to block roads, they are known to be noisy and rude for their frequent events, and they invade privacy with constant camera action. A business owner who thinks, wow, I may make more money off cultists, needs to be disabused of that fantasy, and shown why it is more likely that they will drive AWAY business, not pay bills, and generally be a blight. So, businesses need factual data about what bad neighbors Scilons are, focusing on noise, debt, trespassing, bitching about everything, potential road blocking, potential half-developed eyesore of a building / vacant lot-ness, asking residents on LRH Way for theri drivers' license and SS# to go to their own homes, and possibly recruiting via front groups and offering medical advice without a license (if they plan to do so). Also noting that in Clearwater Scilons systematically drove local businesses out and replaced them with Scibusinesses and that this area is pretty much DEAD except for cultists (IIRC) and some more details about pizza businesses, etc., that refused to deliver to LRH Way and cultists skulking around rooting through people's trash and garages, if it can be done with factual evidence rather than anecdotal, would be worthy. As for residents, the meeting tomorrow (today?) is not the only meeting. Alerting residents now about the cult not only innoculates them against recruitment, but may also move some of them to show up and add their Do Not Wants to Anon's. Again, flyers need to be very factual and informative, but pull no punches. Again, I suggest that people read the "why I protest" thread that was originally on Enturb and *I think* got ported to WWP. Whereas I agree that bellowing about Xenu and Lisa McPherson at a *council meeting* is out of order, and I would be wary of focusing too much on the Xenu angle in a flier, Lisa's story was a very compelling motivator for people to look into the cult, and why many of them were moved to do independent research and then to protest. Even so, I'd focus on the documented bad behavior of the cult, and cite examples of ill-maintained properties and reports of recent deaths (such as Patrick Desmond's last year @ Narconon), failure to pay bills, loud late night events, potential of closed roads, constant paranoid surveillance, possibility of being annoyed by test tables or book sale tables, front group infiltration, possible anti-psychiatry protests, possibility of medical advice and prescribing vitamins without a license or educational background that is any way appropriate, etc. If they plan to open a day care, discuss how Sci's concept of daycare sucks. Basically, if I am a resident, I mostly care about how it affects ME. Will I be kept awake? Will I have trouble finding a parking spot? Will traffic get WORSE? Will the increased traffic cause accidents? Will the cult pay its bills (remember the video on YT about the reporter saking the Scilon why the Org wouldn't pay a roofer or A/C repairguy or plumber or someone similar who did the work they orders? They apparently played games with the bills and disputed charges and sent fractional pysments and dragged it out for months, which is typical, and there's probably Tech to explain it), or will it just wind up being a blight of incomplete renovation for a decade like other Orgs? Show them the crappy condition the Narconon center is in. Even if they spruce it up, we have LOTS of pix showing that they left it looking like a shithouse for almost a year. It also might not hurt to mention their CCHR exhibit of fail. SS has a lot of medical professionals,, including shrinks. I doubt they'd like that. Basically, fliers must be tailored to the intended audience and stick to documentable fact. Scientologists busted for Snow White, Op Freak Out, etc., Scientologists run out of other countries, Scientologists jailed or convicted, medical proof that their Narconon crap is dangerous, proof that ABLE is trying to slip religious indoctrination into public schools, etc., that WISE targets businessmen, whatever...this should be stated plainly but not be the focus of the fliers, as the message that will get through and be of interest, if any, is HOW WILL IT AFFECT ME? and WHY SHOULD I CARE? As such, any examples along those lines--how Scientologists are bad for businesses and residents nearby and how their buildings are left looking like piles of poop while their dodge bills and get tax breaks and pressure you, your spouse, your doctor / dentist, your kids' teachers and your kids with cult propaganda cloaked behind a front group, the noise, the lights, the traffic, the rudeness, the lack of benefit to the community at large and so on--THAT is what will get the locals in that particular area riled up effectively. Especially traffic issues, parking, and noise. God damn, ATL traffic sucks, and parking cops are a bane, and no residents OR businesses appreciate noisy neighbors who throw parties all the time and don't mow their lawn or fix their buildings or pay their bills.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Chances are the members of staff won't like the scilons, you just need to provide good reasons, and reasons that are directly applicable to planning to turn the scilons down. Shit that happened 20 or 30 years ago somewhere else is POINTLESS and makes you look like a retard.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? It is ILLEGAL to place non U.S. postal delivered materials in or on a mail box. PERIOD. This matter of rezoning can only be addressed within the city council chambers. A far better way of informing the local citizenry of scientology's presence within the Sandy Springs community would be going to city hall and get the required permit to protest @ the Roswell rd scientology Ideal org location. On any given day, an audience of thousands would see your sign-age and protesting. It is this posters opinion that it is time to gain said protest permits in Sandy Springs. This MUST be done NOW. We activists need to end run the city council via informing the locals on a street level. This in turn will put informed local citizens butts in seats @ future zoning meetings. This will raise awareness within the local community. Let your peaceful activism work in your behalf. We local activists knew this was coming. We know what is needed to meet the City of Sandy Springs peaceful protest requirements. This is NOT the time to be anonymous. Papers have to be signed. Protest Permit Requirements have to be met. Your PROVEN peaceful protesting track record within Dekalb county over the last year has and will garner you massive credibility within the halls of Sandy Springs government. Use that CREDIBILITY to YOUR advantage. The game is about to change. Will YOU step up to the plate and deliver? Pontificating about what should and should not be done here does help from a moral support level. Yet in the final analysis, real action is required. Get the City of Sandy Springs protest permit. Learn from the mistakes of Feb 08. Here-say and he said she said will only harm the end game. In all honesty here i have to say this . Loud and clear. We are a very small group of activists here in Ga. An even smaller group actually works with local government to pave the way for the many to exercise their 1ST amendment rights. Brutally honest? Yes. I NEED your help on this my fellow critic,s. Will YOU step out of your comfort zone and stand up for what you believe in? I dearly hope so!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? ATL anons - do you just need butts in seats tonight? I can dress up and clap when something nice gets said. I worked in SS and it got much nicer after they kicked out the prostitutes. It would be a shame to have more move in.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? When us Chicago Anons went to the zoning meeting, we didn't argue what should have been argued. The argument needs to be about "use" of the block or area where the Idle Org is being set up. Advise: Find out what the zoning is going to be changed to, how that can affect the residents and businesses in the same area, and if you find anything disadvantageous, talk to the people who work and live in the area to sign against it. Make sure you also call the bureau that handles zoning to know the procedures. And a word of warning, you guys may have to be face-fagged if you choose to speak at the meeting. Chicago Anons had to do this but luckily we weren't fair-gamed given Chicago Scifags are tame.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? lothar and everyone else a big thanks! We are still working on this and all the input is great We are trying to get more info atm. This has been sprung very last minute. Skid the moar the merrier. Gumby I'll help of course. Tell me what u need
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The questions I am composing are along those lines. The 'noisy events' angle won't hold much water, since they had an event quite recently and it wasn't particularly disruptive. I also doubt they'd be able to close off Roswell Road for their own little events! (The street behind, maybe, but probably not, given where the driveway in is.) Frankly, I think the angle for us at this particular meeting should be to gather information more than distribute it. What are your intentions? How many people are we talking about? What are you going to be doing in that building? [strike]What are your crimes?[/strike] Find out what they're up to so we know what we're up against.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Just because the last event was quiet, it doesn't mean they will all be quiet. If they claim to have lots of members, you should use it against them.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I suck at searching any links to dox for the construction projects mentioned? I called SS and they refused to give me info about the proposal. I was told it would be available tonight.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? "How does this affect ME?" When we handed out material door to door on Halloween, one of the points our flier stressed was the potential impact of Scientology in the community. Drug Free Marshals, Youth For Human Rights, and other "outreach" activities meant to align Scientology with legitimate organizations of all sorts, including the Interfaith Alliance. Ultimately, people will be concerned about their kids and their community. Here is the flier we handed out. If anything can be used in SS neighborhoods, hep ur sef!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Super Power Building - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Damn, if you hadn't specified the location, I would have grabbed that flyer for use here!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The O-1 variance is a local issue and should be treated as such. O-1 does not effect your abilities as an activist to exercise your 1st amendment rights. Learn from what other municipalities have gone through and its relationship to what is happening in SS GA. Attend the SS Ga zoning meeting. See what information can be gleaned. Then act upon that information gained accordingly. Variance O-1 is in a proposal stage @ this time. April and May 2009 SS Ga zoning meetings will be the time and place to ask questions and voices well thought out concerns. Look. Learn. Listen. Act in a professional manner and you will be treated in kind.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Excellent. The public face we put on @ the SS Ga meetings pertaining to C of S of Ga and the O-1 variance app will be of the utmost importance. Any of you concerned citizens whom will be attending tonights zoning meeting would be well advised to bring some sort of either audio or video recording device. @ this time , I do not know if the general public is allowed to record the zoning meetings. BUT, @ the very least, make the effort to fully document what will transpire. Unlike Riverside county California, SS Ga city council meetings are not visually recorded to my knowledge. On another note. To those scientologists currently reading this post. I look forward to finally meeting you face to face!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I do not have a recording device at my disposal, but I will be taking extensive notes. I also look forward to meeting my neighbors.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Copypasta, amigo. I thought, if you haven't made a flier for the 'hood yet, you could plagiarize teh fuck outta this one.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? There is indeed tech to explain it. It's called "Dateline paying". L. Ron Hubbard wrote that this is the way to keep your credit good and you must follow it precisely. Unfortunately, Hubbard was describing a payment method from decades ago that doesn't work in today's world, AND the orgs don't mention this payment method to contractors they hire or vendors they buy goods from. Dateline paying requires that you write down ALL of the bills you have. Each week, you decide how much money you have that can go towards "back bills". (Note that this amount comes AFTER paying their due to Scientology management.) They pay the oldest bills first, moving the "dateline" forward as the oldest bills get paid off. The examples Hubbard uses in the policy is something like having a dateline 6 or 12 months back. No one in the USA considers that payment schedule acceptable. Since this method is so formalized, the org knows at any point in time what their "dateline" is. If they offered a job to a contractor and said "Oh, our payment dateline is _________ (8 months ago)" then explained what they meant by that, the contractor wouldn't even take on the job. Would YOU take on a job or deliver goods knowing that you wouldn't get paid for 8 months? I thought not.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? If anyone still checks in before the meeting... It is not "O-1" it is Office-Institutional O-I It was previously zoned O-I conditional. It will likely have no trouble being zoned O-I (for Church). The real question is variances. If you read them and they are not a big deal like for parking, set-backs, etc. THere isn't much to be said. I would try and bring up some projected head count at Ideal Org and point out the problem with thousands at smallish location. You may want to bring up planned used that might not have been disclosed to zoning/planning (might be saved for planning Commish)... like saunas / theraputic... narconon drug rehab... day care.. and Academy / school. At least they are on record claiming they won't have those things. I might also inquire about sleeping quarters because sometimes they have live-in staff. Mostly, I bring up the point that this group of people don't have the money to finish renovations and the bldg might sit unused for years like other "Ideal Orgs", as this bldg has already going on one/two years. If no one speaks in the 10 minute counter time period it will likely be crammed through. (This may happen either way). This may NOT be true. This is the re-zoning approval. It's not clear how the city handles it Planning Commish, but this might be the last real hurdle. Typically the Planning Commish can add things like require landscaping, etc. But once zoning is approved there is no legal hammer for a city to prevent development. The only lever they have after this is bldg permits / Administartive Use waivers.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Good points all. I suggest that anybody who plans to speak have questions written down in advance, to avoid rambling.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Initial reports are that the first of four meetings was successful. The scilon lawyer was asked some rather awkward questions. Scilons' prior bragging about more members than they have worked against them. Those who protest were not the only informed citizens in attendance. There will be video later. Thank you to the people in this thread who offered knowledgeable advice. It helped.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Okay, just got in, a few initial remarks before I go take a shower and wash all that skeeve off of me. Three Sclions were there, older people, looking a bit ragged. They provided the Ideal Org address as their address when they signed in. I didn't take names; I kinda wish I'd done so. One of them said "This should take about fifteen minutes." Heh. The counsel for the Scienos (not a Scieno himself, apparently--he ushers at a Christian church that one of the locals also goes to) got behind the table where the map was and asked if anybody had any questions. Three non-Anon locals, from two nearby condo complexes showed up and asked loads of questions about traffic and parking. One little old lady saw that the parking lot was almost completely full when they had their little shindig the other night and expressed her concerns about that. I fired off a number of questions. Most of the answers were vague and evasive and "I don't know." He did state for the record (yes, there were two cameras recording, so we should have this on tape) that there would be no Narconon treatments there and nobody living in the building. He did, however, concede that they would be adding a sauna. After several different people asking approximately how many Scientologists were in the area, he finally stated that there were about one hundred people. They're trying to zone it so that only part of the building counts as a church (a meeting space that holds about two hundred people) and then use the zoning regulations that apply to insist that they have enough parking for that. As several people pointed out, then, um, what about the activities in the rest of the entire building and where are those people going to park? The only answer was, well, they'll deal with it in a legal manner. Locals were not entirely assured. Okay, I confess, I did ask one question that I really wanted to ask, which was "How is the reputation of the Church of Scientology going to affect the City of Sandy Springs?" I heard the Sclions sputter behind me and one say "What does that have to do with anything?" The answer from the two people who worked for the city is that they were decidedly neutral on the issue and this was about zoning and not about the organization making the request. I left it at that. I pretty much sat back and let the neighbor ladies at them. It was beautiful, really. I'm skipping details, again, I'll try to fill them in later. I'm not sure what kind of fight we're in for, and we may not even win this, but we're definitely not going down without a fight.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Well... don't say I didn't warn you. I said leave ^^^this out of zoning, it's not relevant. Maybe for the mayor's community hearing, but leave it out of zoning and Planning Commish hearings. Good to hear the locals saw the Sat. Ideal Org b-day nonsense. I'm glad they noticed the parking problem. Is the zoning board approving the parking variances??? Next steps would be to get Ideal Org emails and flyers and point out the plans for day care, Section 6 book sales and reading room/coffee shop nonsense. Planning Commish/Zoning should be informed of the planned 7am-7pm activities and sales counters and coffee shops. Another thought is to get video from the ATL org on a Sat. or weekday and show the traffic count of cars in/out. That is probably a lot of work, but the the existing Org already has more then 50 cars every week that is informative. Not sure if Gumby or any Anon has taken note of this.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Glad the neighbor ladies were all over the scilons. Here's how your scilon's comments related to Clearwater FL and Flag. 1. Lying about parking needs: When COS wanted to build the Super Power building, the City of Clearwater was going to require COS to rent or build parking spaces based on the square footage of the building. This is typical in cities where parking is sparse. The idea is to put the responsibility on the builder or contractor or owner to ensure there is sufficient parking so the city doesn't have parking problems or face the need to later build yet another parking garage. COS argued that most of the people who will be coming for Super Power are from out of town. They are picked up by COS shuttle vans from the Tampa airport and since the visitors stay in COS hotels and go to course or auditing in COS buildings, they don't have cars. So COS got the okay to build the Super Power building without requiring a lot of parking to be built. COS did build a parking structure, but I think it was significantly smaller than any other organization would have been required to build. In the City of Clearwater, if you buy an office or retail building in downtown and you have NO parking spaces, you have to pay the city (like) $4,000 per space you should have. It doesn't matter that the prior owner of the building might also have paid that, too. This is one reason why real estate in downtown Clearwater is useless for purchase/sale. There is very limited street parking and (I think) only two parking garages. Of course, COS also brags about how many local Scientologists there are in Clearwater (I think they claim about 10,000 or something stupid like that), but that figure is not expressed when they are trying to sway the building dept to grant a building permit that would require parking spaces. 2. Lying about religious use of the building: COS brags to its members (I know, because they bragged to me, too) that the Ft Harrison Hotel was being taxed at a dual rate - part of it was being taxed as a hotel and part was exempted (or taxed less) because it was a "church". COS said that when the Super Power building was to be built that the "church services" would be held in the new building and the hotel would be a hotel with restaurants and convention rooms and it would be on the regular property tax rolls. It remains to be seen if that is the case in the future (since the SP building isn't finished yet, we won't know until it is).
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I know. You did. I phrased the question as neutrally as possible and, like I said, left it at that. There's plenty to complain about without bringing that up. It felt good to piss off the Scienos, though. Currently, the building is so dead that they had to put a No Trespassing sawhorse in one entrance to keep random people from using it for parking. The LRH B-day shindig on Saturday was the first time I'd seen a large number of cars there for some time. And, as a lady who could see pretty much the whole lot from where she lived pointed out, it was pretty much at capacity. The lawyer did a lot of waffling about how the 'religion' doesn't have regular services where everybody comes and goes at once, but has a lot of 'one-on-one counseling' (he used that phrase a lot) and classes. Raven pointed out that the current center advertises Sunday services and the lawyer guy said he didn't know anything about that. Go fig.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Re: parking and zoning.. See the "church" has a catch 22. On the one hand they like to build a large "chapel" in these Ideal Orgs. They then pretend they have Sunday services so they don't seem so odd in case community leaders start showing up. They also like have large event room for movie time. The problem with this is parking requirements start to take place for any large meeting rooms. Many cities have specific zoning requirements for churches need X spots for a certain size meeting room. And tons of handicap parking. If they try and not have a large "chapel" they might be able to skate by with 50-60 spots. I haven't researched the Sandy Springs parking zoning. Links were provided, but the question is that I'm assuming the zoning variances were approved ?? (And Clearwater has zero similarities here, they are not doing construction (yet) so they might be able to first get re-zoning, then show plans for major renovations. New construction is where parking is an issue)
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The zoning variances have not been approved. This was a preliminary meeting only, where the proposal was presented to the public. There are several more meetings that need to happen in the approval process, and I plan to attend and raise questions at every single one of them. I think pinning them down on parking and concerns about overflow should definitely be one of the prongs of attack, because you can't exactly put a 'hate group' spin on that one.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Of course, their counsel is now on record--on camera--as stating that they don't have regular services like that. Just lots of 'one-on-one counseling'.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The answer from the two people who worked for the city is that they were decidedly neutral on the issue and this was about zoning and not about the organization making the request. I left it at that. Now we know fer sure 2 stay on point re: zoning meanwhile others in attendance herd the question and may perhaps do their own research yes, I made suggestions earlier that were not on point re: zoning
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? let the neighbor ladies at them time to start making the neighborhood ladies into YPA
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? You should be able to get the names of all who signed in as it is public record. You just have to go back and ask for the info.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? We are the Condo Association. We are Legion. Expect us.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? My point was to show that COS has a history of lying to government depts to get their way, then doing whatever they want to do when the time comes. COS is trying something with the zoning of that building over by you. COS will NEVER divulge the real reason they want to do this or that. You have to extrapolate from their past behaviors with other buildings in other cities as to what they're probably planning there. By trying to claim that the building is "part church", they have something up their sleeve. And like I pointed out in Clearwater, you don't have to build new construction to be required to ensure proper parking volumes are available. Any existing building counts, too.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? To anyone just joining.. Check here Can we compile the list of variance problems re: parking. So far the only thing I suspect they are failing at is Code: ARTICLE VIII -- Section 8.1.3. O-I DEVELOPMENT STANDARDS. J. Maximum Lot Coverage - The area of the footprint of all buildings and parking shall not exceed 70 percent of the total land area. Need to look closer at google satellite to confirm. Things to harpoon.. -Signage laws. -Lighting and local laws on sign illumination. -Administrative & Use Permit requirements (needed for Day Care and sauna?). Parking looks to be: - one per 3.5 fixed seats (theater style seating) - one per 30 sq. ft. in largest assembly room (bench style seating) (for reference, retail is 5 per 1000 sq. ft., restaurants/coffee shops is 10 per 1000 sq. ft.) Parking space size is in ARTICLE XVIII Section 18.4.1 Anyone know the number of handicapped spots required by Georgia Law? Anyone catch the size of their "chapel" on the building plans??
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? They probably won't talk much about what they're planning to do there of their own accord, but perhaps we could ask a few pointed questions so they'll be forced to confirm or deny. I did get their counsel to state that they won't be doing Narconon treatments or housing any residents. I asked about WISE, CCHR and Applied Scholastics, and he didn't have an answer. Said he'd have to find out.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? about this sauna they will build they will add to the building... in waht way will the activities in this sauna differ from the scientifically unsound, medically dangerous conditions at Narconon? Do what you will in your own naked coed sauna, but as a nay boor ( if I was one) I don't want ambulances screaming by at all hours of the night because someone passed out from heatstroke and niacin overdose.
