Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? True, but one end of the spectrum (the high end) forces them to build a multi-level parking structure to support all their (non-existant) followers and pay for road enhancements (widenings etc.) while the other just makes them look like liars. That's why I would have someone play dumb and go all out in terms of pretending to believe all their BS.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? You mean they lie??? tl; dr exactly. Hey, the eek smiley doesn't seem to be working.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? they were very slippery on membership numbers at the first meeting.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I don't think any of them have been working for ages. (Yeah, yeah, adminfags, I know. "Then why the fuck didn't you say something?!" Lazy anon is lazy, and doesn't afraid of no smileys. )
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Sounds like a good idea. I can only imagine how they would try to weasel out of that one. The Co$ shill/member representative could not avoid becoming a lulzcow, at least for that meeting.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Actual application lodged with the City of Sandy Springs Ga by the Church of Scientology of Georgia. Within the content of these documents pay particular attention to the VARIANCE requested regarding the LOAD BEARING issue with the 1ST floor of the property in question. The first floor does NOT meet code requirements from a supporting weight to end use angle, hence the current ban of use. Also, see the EASEMENT AREA shared between the UNITED STATES POST OFFICE and the scientology property as an overflow parking area? C of S of GA claims to have an agreement of use with the UNITED STATES POST OFFICE. As stated by C of S of Ga media rep, there are 600 ACTIVE church members. The current available parking for the property in question is 83 spaces. If one was to liberally put 3 church attendee,s into 1 car each, this would add up to 150 cars in need of parking space. Currently there are 83. Simple math shows the additional need for 67 more parking spaces for just a regular sunday service. 3 questions need to be addressed here. ------------------------------------------------- 1- How will the 1st floor load bearing issue be met and why the need to NOT meet current zoning codes. ( 600 potential people on an under rated sub structure can result in a collapse of said structure). 2- With 600 potential sunday service attendees, where will the additional 67 parking spaces come from? ( UNITED STATES POSTAL and SCIENTOLOGY shared easement area?) 3- The written agreement between the UNITED STATES POST OFFICE and C of S of GA to use USPS parking area as overflow.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Someguynameddavid, thank you for the information. If you're counting 3 plus the scilon driver in a car, then 150 parking spaces for 600 cult members is a good figure. If you're counting 3 INCLUDING the scilon driver in a car, then you're looking at 200 cars, which would necessitate an additional 117 parking spaces. I'm very interested in seeing how this would not result in an "excessive and burdensome use" of existing streets and utilities. Also, I'm curious to see how the city of Sandy Springs will verify the Co$'s compliance with the public notification requirements, given their known and lengthy history of hijinks and outright fraud. If I were a property owner in that area, I would also be concerned with any potential failgaming, no matter how reasonable the grounds for opposition were. If I were a member of a church of that size going into that building, I would want to make sure the building could handle the load of 600 people. Assuming an average weight of 150 lbs. per person, including purses, wallets, and whatnot, you're looking at a building that needs to handle 90,000 lbs. of people. That would not include, of course, the literature, computers, DVD players, televisions, and other materials needed for a church to operate, and for a church of that size, that would be a considerable additional weight load. Without the proper safety considerations, that building could become a death trap PDQ. Wow. Feels strange to do a serious post for once.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? For more on the load-bearing issue: note that BOOKS and SAUNA FIXTURES, especially when filled with people and water, are effing heavy. Ditto the massive amount of paperwork generated by the average Org. I wonder if there was a sauna in the current Org, and if that was what caused the reported plumbing failures we heard about from the "landlady"? Does the Post Office realize that they may have Scilons using their lot NOT just on Sundays when the PO is closed? After all, the reps did note that people would be streaming in and out from 9am to 9pm every day. Perhaps they will be less happy with the arrangement when this is pointed out, given the likely overflow of vehicles. Will the refurbishments to the sign make it in any way harder for drivers to see around? This is already a busy and accident-dense spot, and adding any further impediment to seeing clearly up and down the road, be it shrubs or bigger/wider/distracting signage is a safety issue. I assume that event noise / vehicle noise / lights / music, etc. have been addressed? Do the Scilons intend to hold any events in their parking lot that might draw extra crowds / alter traffic patterns / violate peddler license laws / make a lot of noise? I'd challenge any attempt to set up book or test tables or to hold 'parties' in the parking lot. Will Scilons be "witnessing" or soliciting in neighboring strip malls, businesses, residential communities, or posting fliers / posters on utility poles, or otherwise being a nuisance? (That one is weak, but maybe can be shaped into something relevant.) Will Scilons be providing medical or psychiatric care or advice without a board-certified medical doctor / psychiatrist permanently on staff? Will Scilons comply with HIPAA guidelines? (Any medical / psychiatric record must comply with HIPAA, and anyone with access to same MUST be HIPAA-certified.) Does dispensing vitamins / offering sauna treatments fall under the umbrella of medical advice / psychiatric advice / medical care or not? If there are no actual medical or psychiatric benefits, then isn't this a scam? Isn't there danger involved with prescribing vitamins / meds or offering medical care without a medical doctor and shrink on staff? Will staff be trained in CPR? Do you count touch-assists as CPR? Will there be a defibrillator on site for people who get heart attacks after being exposed to nearly boiling water? (One of my former bosses died of a heart attack in a sauna at the YMCA on Clifton Road, for example. He had no prior known heart condition.) If an emergency vehicle is needed, will it be able to access the property in a timely manner, given the traffic issues in that area? Has the building been tested for asbestos content and lead paint? If child care is to be provided, will the caregivers be bonded and licensed? If schooling of any sort is to be provided, will the teachers be licensed and credentialed via the GA Board of Education, and file lesson plans as homeschoolers must? Just some things to think about.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Okay, here's the letter I got (along with every other homeowner in the area, I presume) from their counsel. It confirms the date and time but doesn't provide much else in the way of information. Sorry so huge--I cropped the whitespace out but couldn't get it to reduce without looking like mush.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I love the real shnazzee elevator musiq in 1st video
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? 24 hours until the Community/Developer Resolution Meeting. April 23, 2009 at 6:00 PM. This should be quite the happening. Hope to see some ATLnons there along with the neighbor ladies. Will keep y'all posted.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? A short proxy-type post for some fellow anons: A lot of angry neighbors showed for the Community/Developer Resolution Meeting. Those who made it out there have high hopes of success!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The meeting went very well in some aspects. The local neighborhood is very much against the rezoning. The lawyer and etc were beaten on over and over again about the lack of parking and unanswered questions. The crowd was very well educated about sci, sci plans, and a bit about sci's past. If the zoning committee ignores everything and lets them move on in it has been made more than clear by the local neighbors they know exactly what sci is and they have no interest in them. Interesting stuff: 1) They currently rent 11,000 square feet for the 25 people who come by every week to use the current facilities. lol They claimed 24,44, 100 come by in a week the # changed as different questions were asked. 2) 20 people are on staff currently. They work in two different shifts 4) The lawyer mentioned no one would sleep over night in the idle org. 5) The name of the company doing the work on the building was given. I'll grab it later 6) A few local neighborhood groups met with sci's lawyer to try and work things out by reaching a compromise. Sci has refused to put a use cap on the building at these meetings. 7) It was promised narconon would not be there. 8) Many of the Sandy Springs residents have driven by the current space sci rents. They were told by the current neighbors of that location the sci are bad neighbors and have caused problems. I would have loved for more details on this, but they were not given. Furthermore the SS residents also think the current space they rent looks trashy. 9) Sci's lack of ability to maintain the space they own was brought up. I knew the building looked really run down however, it now has graffiti on it. 10) Deb Danos was there again as well as one of the other sci from the previous meeting. After the first meeting deb looked beaten and sad and this guy looked like he wanted to snap my neck. This time deb looked blank in the eyes and the other guy never looked over at us. IMO:The lawyer made a veiled threat about suing over religious bigotry if this is turned down. What I think we need: picts of Org, Narcs, CCHR, and etc that look like crap! The funding and maintenance of this building is being questioned but us and the general neighborhood. More letters to go out. Even if we lose this and they move the neighborhood is very resentful and well educated about co$. This will not be a good move for them.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Next meeting info is here: May 21, 2009 from 7pm to 8pm 7840 Roswell Road Building 500 in Sandy Springs In order to speak you will have to fill out a card with your info on it. All past meetings can be viewed here:YouTube - GovTransparency's Channel Just in case you have forgotten this is why ATL: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wRNvODdmlc&feature=channel_page]YouTube - Narconon of GA, 911 tape. A life gone to soon.[/ame]
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The motion was deferred for 60 days because the council was going to approve the zoning, but with so many restrictions, Scientology would hardly have been able to use the building. The neithbors were so upset about the whole thing that none of US had to say anything! More coming in a bit!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Okies, just got home. The lawyer for the Scienos had about two or three rows of people show up to the meeting. I'm not entirely sure why, since they didn't speak, except maybe to, um, show support or something. Opposition had ten minutes TOTAL to speak, so by the time I came up to the mike I had sixty seconds. I used thirty of them to point out that just because Scientology made a five million dollar mistake, the neighborhood shouldn't have to suffer the consequences, and left it at that. One of the council members made that point as well when they were asking the lawyer questions. Hee! Mr. Galloway (the lawyer) kept harping on how tiny and feeble the membership of Scientology is in order to make a case that they won't be that much of a disruption. Total members on their mailing list active in the last two years: 600 Max attendance at any given event: 60 Number of people showing up at the current location: 100/week Number of people showing up at 'Sunday services': 20 Numbers for classroom attendance cited: between 6 and 13 Google tells me that the current population of Atlanta is five million. Let's look at that numerically. Number of people in Atlanta, Georgia, according to the US Census: 5,000,000 Number of Scientologists in the Atlanta area active in the past two years: 600 Dude, even if they eventually get the damn zoning, they have footbulleted themselves with having numbers like these in the public record. Either way, they lose. All the the Scienos were older people who looked a bit ragged to me. Not exactly homo superior. The petition will still come before the Mayor in June; they will decide whether or not to grant the deferral. We'll prolly be there to see what happens if nothing else.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Everything Ultra said above I've never been in a room with so many sci. They all looked dead in the eyes. I was going to speak, but it became obvious very quickly that I didn't need to. I find what happened today to be huge. However, we now have 60 more days of writing letters, making videos and informing the rest of sandy springs about the cult
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? That's great that you guise took the time to show up and report back. Funny thing about their numbers. I wonder what their internal PR says about them? 600 would be a lot of people for one event, but they claim no more than 60 would be expected to show up at any given time? That doesn't make sense.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? They claim no more than 60 because they only have 83 parking spaces. If all 600 members showed up, there'd be nowhere to put them. (They keep hedging and saying they'll be doing off-site events in that case, but still . . . )
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? One more thing... Thanks to anyone who sent us picts or info on their local orgs. It was of tremendous help.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Doesn't matter what they claim regarding membership. Use their inconsistencies to show they say what ever they think will get them what they want. Remember this IS the FASTEST GROWING religion in the world! Why else would they buy such a building if they didn't intend to fully utilise it? Lastly this isn't a religious issue this is a zoning issue, end of! They get huge tax breaks the least they can do is comply fully with zoning and planning requirements! Coz if the scilons don't now then the poor neighbors will bear the tax costs of any necessary upgrades.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? EPIC WIN! Seriously, they know they're on the road to failing their zoning approval. and that will mean a HUGE PARTY for us!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Quick note about tonight's hearing: All has been deferred until August. More to come when the others get online.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Well it was delayed until August 8th so sci can pay for a parking study to be done. Obviously it will be biased. One of the council members went after sci's lawyer and it was beautiful to see. I hope Gumby gets the videos up soon. We have 60 days to get people even more worked up. The objectives remain the same 1) Inform people to get them to not let sci in 2) Inform people enough that if sci gets in they won't get any new customers form it.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? The Mayor and City Council meeting has been put off till August 18; however, there is a Planning Commission meeting this Thursday, July 16. The meetings were put off for scientology's attorney, Woody Galloway, to have a parking study done. The study has been done, and can be found here: http://www.sandysprings-ga.org/agendas/PC/2009-0716/04h_RZ09001_PC071609.pdf along with a letter showing he isn't happy about what is here: http://www.sandysprings-ga.org/agendas/PC/2009-0716/04e_RZ09001_PC071609.pdf There's an open directory there too, with other related stuff, look for the files with "RZ09001" in the filename. There's some interesting info for NashAnons in that parking study, too.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Bump for everyone to read. This is fucking lulzy as hell. PDF is totally worth a read.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? As seen in the PDF below, it WAS. Nutshelled: NashOrg is a different kettle of fish entirely from SS proposed Ideal Org. NashOrg is at the corner of two wide (4-lane) perpendicular roads in a commercial district with minimal foot traffic. They are not right across from several apartment / condo / townhome communities and I doubt they have serious accidents right outside their front door (unlike the SS proposed location, which is already a dangerous intersection). NashOrg has, as is obvious from Google Earth, direct observation and images included in PDF (if it is the one I saw) more spaces. Scis also own property next door AND there appears to be ample overflow space across the street and down the block. In short, it is not a comparable property to do a parking study on. They should have observed a commercial property as close to the disputed intersection / neighborhoods instead, but that would not give them the biased figures they desired. The overtones of "this is religious bigotry and we're going to sue" are, as predicted, present in Galloway's butthurt letter. ATLanons have been pushing this HARD. There are over 500 "DO NOT WANT" letters / petitions in the PDF bundle I looked through, and I had earlier underestimated the total at about 400, so as not to exaggerate like Scilons do. I did not see ONE "DO WANT SCILONS" letter...a shock, as I expected a whole bunch of LULZy butthurt Scitard whining. The other thread, where we requested craphole Org / Mission / etc. pix has been a godsend. Neighbors have been looking at them. Thanks to all who contributed constructively to our Collection Of Fug Orgs. The primary issues focused on: PARKING / TRAFFIC They were ballsy and just held an event there before being given their zoning variance. The lot was crammed to the gills. The variance they want would remove ~30 of the available spaces, AND they rely on the generosity of the nearby Post Office (federal / gov't entity) to park their overflow on P.O. property. The neighbors have, sensibly, pointed out that IF, as Deb Danos has been quoted saying, they have "600 active local" Scilons now, with approximately 100-200 "frequently" attending "services," and want to grow to have "more" soon, they are already WAY over capacity for the building's available parking slots, and if they met their goal of rooking more vulnerable victims into the cult, they'd have to park four deep or hire double-decker busses...or use Super OT powers over MEST to astral travel there or postulate more parking spots in an alternate dimension or something. They have already held testing and/or booksales in the parking lot, which, as it is open to public, (ostensibly) draws more traffic and therefore CLEARLY requires more parking available. Neighbors do not want Scilons invading their parking lots or neighborhood side streets. As noted, the Sci habit of counting every body thetan as a separate Scilon (which is how they get ridiculous global Sci population numbers of 8-12 million instead of, MAYBE, 25-50k!) and counting every gullible idiot who ever bought Dianetics, took a "test" or agreed (more fools they) to receive e-mail as an 'active" parishioner is coming back to bite them in the butt. FRONT GROUPS Neighborhood is adamant that no Narconon (or similar entity) be housed in bldg. Working to refine language so that Scilons can't just create a new entity with a new name that is, in essence, Narconon. Neighbors also do not want CCHR housed there, and have expressed fury at CCHR's stated goal of wiping out the industry of psychiatry. APPEARANCE The building has been theirs for 5 years, and looks like shit. Fundraising (within an already-strapped parishioner base) is focused solely on interior renovation and repair, not exterior. Scilons knew the zoning and layout of building when they bought it, and can't whine about "hardship" when they bought the property with their eyes open. Zoning variance to remove more parking spaces and change character of building would render it unfit for other, future, tenants. It would become a "white elephant" of a property. Scilon properties locally and elsewhere are crapholes. Neighbors are not amused. Also notable: Scilons have completely ignored the neighborhood's antipathy and proceeded to FLYER in the area, which pissed MORE neighbors off. Some neighbors bought into Sci depiction of protesters as scary people in "fright masks" protesting CoS's "beliefs" and four comments out of 500 were directed towards the possibility of protest. They have since done some research and gotten to know some of the loudmouths who run dis joiny down in Peachesville, and have figured out that we do not wear masks, have a great relationship with the local LEOs, and do not protest "beliefs" but human rights abuses. They still do not want a bunch of Anons raging at cultists once a month. The good news is, if they refuse to give the Scis their special privileges, the Scis will likely be unable to occupy the property, and thus there'd be no Scis to protest, so no protesters. The Scis are already pulling the usual dirty tricks (a biased and meaningless parking study intended to counter the legitimate one already done) and BAAAWWWW, and hinting that they might sue ("religious bigotry! BAAAAWWW!"), but, the bottom line is, they are asking for special privileges they should not be allowed to get. It is not the community's fault that they bought a $5 million dolalr building they can't use in its current state. It's not the community's fault that they can't answer a single question honestly without waffling on stats and numbers and fudging facts. It is not the neighborhood's problem that they didn't bother to mow their lawn or fix their peeling paint, weeds, cracked parking lot, rotting roof and broken shutters for FIVE YEARS--or that their other local properties look like crap, or that their properties globally look like shit, also--and thus have already convinced the neighbors that they aren't going to keep up the appearance of the Org well enough to meet the community standards. Stay tuned, it is only getting LULZier. ETA: If they can't occupy the Idle Org, I assume that a certain short angry person in California will be less than thrilled. And, if they try to find a new spot, ATLanons have inoculated the area pretty well, though there is always more truth to tell and share.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Awesome. With a little prodding from Anon they just step right up and hang themsleves! They can't help it! Well done.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? WWP Anons helped A LOT, with useful ideas in this thread, with sharing what worked and did not work in other cities, with vocal support when locals got weary of constantly repeating the same issues and facts and points of contention over and over and over, and with providing great pix of neglected Sci properties globally. It's not over yet, but, even if the worst possible outcome occurs (Scis bully the council into getting their way), the neighbors are now VERY well-informed, and the Scis will NOT be able to recruit any new victims from any of those nice people...and those nice people will be poised to pounce over every transgression and annoyance.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? This is one of those contradictions described by Bart Simpson when he mistakenly got sent to a school for high achievers. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you claim the numbers the parishioners need to hear, you don't get your parking. If you give the real numbers, Scientologists are gonna wonder, "Hey! Where'd everybody go?" I snickered at that, but I had the hiccups and choked into a coughing fit. Coulda died. Didn't. Over on Ask the Scientologist: Ask a question! Justbill is quoting the 2008-2009 ARIS (American Religious Identification Survey) as reporting that membership has gone from 55,000 to 25,000 IN JUST ONE YEAR! That is a membership decline of over 50%! The last thing RTC wants is for people to notice that decline. So, we're seeing a lot of new faces from LA and Orange County, if license plate holders are anything to go by. Packing the house so the locals won't notice seems to be the tactic here. It's like the roadside attractions in Arizona (can you handle THE THING??? They put dead cars in the parking lot so tourists will think business is booming. Then you go in and you're the only people in there. So, which is it gonna be in SS? Inflated numbers to keep the local Scilons secure, or real data that will get them a parking lot, but expose the real membership numbers to the local publics? I hope y'all got pix of the overflow from the Idle Org grand event! Depending on Federal property for overflow is just not on! Won't somebody think of the liability? (and the children!)
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Braced for the meeting tonight. Hope I can get my words in edgewise in between the neighbor ladies.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? ^^^^ THIS! Thanks, everyone who helped out! /r/ someone to put a note on the org door once the zoning is denied: BLOW BEFORE YOU GET BEATEN! .... not really ....
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? I'm wishing you all luck, and wishing I weren't too far for an evening trip, at least to show some in-person support!
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Update: Operation Clambake Message Board :: View topic - Rev. Bob Adams fails in Georgia.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Scientologists spouting nonsense??? No! They've been getting weirder on the citizen journalist threads I've been following. When the going gets hard, they resort to idiocy like Bob Adams apparently displayed. My pants, they are happy.
Re: Zoning Meeting for Scieno Property--What To Do? Prepare for positively ecstatic pants tomorrow. Gumby haz video.
